Bark river's knife steel chart

knife chop said:
Fair enough.

Their A2 must have the same low toughness of a PM 154 and D2 then. I say that because I saw the destruction test of the bravo 1. It might not be scientific but that A2 proved to be on the brittle side compared to other A2. Just my conclusion.
Click to expand...

First, maybe this chart is better then the usual, because it only attempts to reflect Bark River's/Mike Stewart's opinion on how those steels perform in the knives he makes.

That said, in my opinion, the only thing more meaninglessly nonsensical than one of these "comprehensive steel charts" is a YouTube destruction test video. They prove nothing, and a sophisticated/educated knife user would never draw any conclusions from one of them. :barf:

In my opinion.
 
marcinek said:
First, maybe this chart is better then the usual, because it only attempts to reflect Bark River's/Mike Stewart's opinion on how those steels perform in the knives he makes.

That said, in my opinion, the only thing more meaninglessly nonsensical than one of these "comprehensive steel charts" is a YouTube destruction test video. They prove nothing, and a sophisticated/educated knife user would never draw any conclusions from one of them. :barf:

In my opinion.
Click to expand...

Sophisticated/educated? Hahah. Don't make it sound we're drinking wine and cheese here John. Define and how sophisticated can you be using a knife? Educated yes, like you don't make a 10 inch chopper made out of s110v. Scientific or not don't we all enjoy watching those tests and cringe every single hit? Lol. I didn't refer brittleness because the knife broke being hammered. What I should have pointed out in terms of brittleness on that particular steel is how it chipped just by chopping through a 4x4.
 
knife chop said:
Scientific or not don't we all enjoy watching those tests and cringe every single hit?
Click to expand...

Not at all.

It's like watching a perfectly good Ferrari get fed into a car crusher, then the internet community extolling it as an excellent test that proves that Ferraris are junk because the test car 'failed' when fed into the grinder.

'Car people' should know better, as should 'knife people'.
 
knife chop said:
Sophisticated/educated? Hahah. Don't make it sound we're drinking wine and cheese here John. Define and how sophisticated can you be using a knife? Educated yes, like you don't make a 10 inch chopper made out of s110v. Scientific or not don't we all enjoy watching those tests and cringe every single hit? Lol. I didn't refer brittleness because the knife broke being hammered. What I should have pointed out in terms of brittleness on that particular steel is how it chipped just by chopping through a 4x4.
Click to expand...

Define how? Gladly. Many words have mutiple meanings, and one of the meanings of "sophisticated" is

(of a person or their thoughts, reactions, and understanding) aware of and able to interpret complex issues; subtle
Click to expand...

Let me use it in a sentence:

"A sophisticated knife user, being aware of and able to interpret complex issues, would easily recognize that YouTube knife destruction videos are utter utter nonsense that prove nothing."

Do I enjoy watching them? I'll agree with the clearly-sophisticated MatthewSB: Not at all.
 
me2 said:
Oh for the luvva...another chart like this? I should make my own and just throw darts blindfolded at names on the wall for the rankings. At least know what Sintered means and how to spell it.
Click to expand...

I know, right? Total marketing nonsense. Affect/effect... for Pete's sake, at least have someone proof-read it. :rolleyes:

PatrickKnight said:
I may be wrong here but I have yet to ever see D2 no matter how well it was heat treated equal A2 in toughness unless a salesman was selling D2.
Click to expand...

RevDevil said:
The toughness question though, I don't know if high toughness in D2 would mean good edge holding as well.
Click to expand...

Not an opinion, just a fact... D2 will never match 3V or A2 or 1095 for toughness at the same hardness and geometry. Anyone who claims otherwise is simply jerking your chain.

That whole chart is flummoxed. Riddled with half-truths and outright BS. For instance... CPM-154 is an excellent steel for many knife applications, but it's far from being the "toughest stainless" alloy available. Nor is it ever going to match A2 for raw toughness. That's pure nonsense.

"Proprietary Heat-treat", my behind. BRKT has their steel HT'ed at the same place as me and about a thousand other makers and manus. There's nothing "proprietary" about it, it's just right. I find such claims both personally and professionally offensive.

okbohn said:
Big Mike hit the reason the D2 is so tough--it is not D2, but CPM-D2. The powdered steel makes the carbides evenly spaced and sized and increases the toughness.
Click to expand...

CPM-D2 is a bit tougher and finer-grained than ingot D2. But it cannot compare to CPM-3V or A2 for toughness, and it's still about the same as CPM-154. The chemistry simply doesn't allow any magical increases. There is no real advantage at all to using CPM-D2 instead of "regular" D2 for knives, other than pure hype and a prettier finish. Don't take my word for it, ask the folks at Crucible why they stopped making CPM-D2, and continue to make CPM-154 and CPM-3V.




Sorry to be so pissy, but this is the sort of thing that really gets under my skin. Don't just swallow the marketing BS, people. Fact-check it. All the data you need is readily available.
 
Last edited:
I ordered a aurora 3v white & black ebony from KSF, really looking forward to trying out this steel and model.
 
No idea what all the complaining is about. Crucible themselves use the exact same relative performance graphs. There is no labeling on the y axis because it is for both lb-ft measured in a charpy impact and for wear, either adhesive or abrasive, likely abrasive. The relative values will be accurate for the physical dimensions, the microstructure, heat treat, and surface condition. Without that, it is less useful, but if you see a chart like this in ad copy for aerospace, tooling, and mold industries for leaders like Bohler or Crucible, you might want to throw this much vitriol their way as well.

I certainly am no fan of BRK, but I cannot understand the issue with the chart. It seems that too many people think A2 is tougher than it is, relative to other knife steels. I have yet to see it reported at over 40 lb-ft on a charpy test. You should see how low toughness is for ingot M4, it might be surprising considering how well the CPM does.
 
Krav said:
I ordered a aurora 3v white & black ebony from KSF, really looking forward to trying out this steel and model.
Click to expand...

You're going to love it. The Aurora fits amazingly well in the hand, can do just about anything you need it to do, and I love the 3V steel - I find it easy to sharpen on a Sharpmaker, holds an edge very well, and you can beat on it all day long.
 
hardheart said:
No idea what all the complaining is about. Crucible themselves use the exact same relative performance graphs. There is no labeling on the y axis because it is for both lb-ft measured in a charpy impact and for wear, either adhesive or abrasive, likely abrasive. The relative values will be accurate for the physical dimensions, the microstructure, heat treat, and surface condition. Without that, it is less useful, but if you see a chart like this in ad copy for aerospace, tooling, and mold industries for leaders like Bohler or Crucible, you might want to throw this much vitriol their way as well.

I certainly am no fan of BRK, but I cannot understand the issue with the chart. It seems that too many people think A2 is tougher than it is, relative to other knife steels. I have yet to see it reported at over 40 lb-ft on a charpy test. You should see how low toughness is for ingot M4, it might be surprising considering how well the CPM does.
Click to expand...


What's the main thing you don't like about Bark River? I've had great experiences thus far, but I did have a friend have a QC issue with his Fox River (cracked scales that weren't noticed).
 
AlexWitte said:
What's the main thing you don't like about Bark River? I've had great experiences thus far, but I did have a friend have a QC issue with his Fox River (cracked scales that weren't noticed).
Click to expand...

Not really the topic being discussed....:confused:
 
fielder said:
Just out of interest, what would you say is the toughest stainless steel?
Click to expand...

Elmax @ 58Rc, ground by yours truly and HT'ed by Peters.. Myself and several friends have beaten it like a red-headed step-dog and just can't get it to chip out on the edge in anything resembling "normal" use, and beyond. Quite honestly it holds up noticeably better than O1 at the same hardness, which surprised me quite a bit. (they both resist breakage and chipping very well, but O1 dulls while Elmax stays sharp)

CTS-XHP exhibits similar, pleasantly-surprising durability. Unfortunately, I have a hard time getting XHP stock to work with.

As much as I love CPM-154 for small/medium knives and kitchen stuff, it just won't take that much abuse before failing. It's roughly the same as D2 in terms of toughness and edge-holding, but with finer edges, in my experience.

I'm looking forward to beating the snot out of Elmax at 60 and 62 Rc and see how it holds up, I just haven't gotten around to that yet.


I would really love to put AEB-L/13c26 and similar alloys through their paces in a larger knife, but I haven't yet found them in thicker stock (3/16" or greater). That's a shame, because I suspect they would hold up pretty dang well in pure toughness, although probably not as well in terms of edge-holding.
 
Last edited:
AlexWitte said:
What's the main thing you don't like about Bark River? I've had great experiences thus far, but I did have a friend have a QC issue with his Fox River (cracked scales that weren't noticed).
Click to expand...
Haven't owned one, and never will, but due to the owner and some private correspondence about their practices. Have seen several reports of bad QC, but that is a separate issue. And yes, not really to do with the topic. The review and GBU would be the places to look.
 
hardheart said:
Haven't owned one, and never will, but due to the owner and some private correspondence about their practices. Have seen several reports of bad QC, but that is a separate issue. And yes, not really to do with the topic. The review and GBU would be the places to look.
Click to expand...

Good to know. Adds interest to their steel chart in terms of potential inaccuracies.
 
hardheart said:
Haven't owned one, and never will, but due to the owner and some private correspondence about their practices. Have seen several reports of bad QC, but that is a separate issue. And yes, not really to do with the topic. The review and GBU would be the places to look.
Click to expand...


Another chairborn commando who forms his opinions based on internet banter. :foot: :eek: :foot:


Thankfully the 30,000 or so who buy Bark River products every year know how well they really work. :thumbup: :cool: :thumbup:



Big Mike
 
Mike Stewart IMHO is one of the best knife-makers around, and I wouldn't question his advice on steels. I wish he was still making knives with 52100 as he used to at Marble's, though. My Marble's Campcraft and Woodcraft from that era are a pair of my favorite blades.
 
Big Mike said:
Another chairborn commando who forms his opinions based on internet banter.
Click to expand...
I would advise you to put the can opener down. Internet banter from men like Jerry Fisk, Tom Maringer, Ethan Becker, Bob Cargill, Will Fennel, Chris Reeve, Anthony Lombardo, the FBI, the state of Illinois, plus a federal indictment & conviction with time served for bank fraud all carry a hell of a lot more weight than your incessant shill posts. Have a good one, friend of Smoothie (I don't know Stewart's real name, only that he changed it).

and if anyone wants to get back on subject, the chart looks fine to me.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top