Barmaley's Aggregated Questions Thread

[HeavyHanded]

A ceramic stone will last several lifetimes but it's not coarse enough to reprofile a blade. Neither is a 300 grit diamond. Something like a Norton
IB8 is. Then finish it off on a 400 grit India stone. This will give you a nice kitchen working edge. Taking it real fine is not needed unless you just
prefer it that way. DM

And these stones last a lifetime +.

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

Most kitchen knives are very easy to deal with. Even for edge-thinning jobs, a Coarse (325-mesh) DMT in a bench stone format, like 8" x 3" or 6" x 2", can handle it. I've used my own for such purposes. I've even thinned the edge one of my kitchen knives (6" blade in stainless Chicago Cutlery) with a Coarse DMT Dia-Fold sharpener. For stainless, keeping the hone continually lubricated helps to keep it cutting cleanly & quickly, without clogging. They can clog very quickly if used dry, or if they're allowed to dry for even a few moments in use with water. Most heavy grinding jobs on kitchen knives only need to be done ONCE to set good geometry, after which the maintenance can easily be done with a finer hone or a ceramic rod, or even a simple kitchen steel.

Another aspect of why I say kitchen knives are easy to deal with is, many other options can do it also, like the previously mentioned Norton IB8 (India) stone. I've also used this for some of my stainless kitchen knives. I've settled into a comfortable regimen of grinding/thinning on the IB8 (Coarse and Fine sides), then refining with lighter passes on the Fine side of the same stone. Deburring can be done on a piece of clean paper laid over the oiled stone, used as a strop. Beyond that, on an as-needed basis while using the knives, I do most of the touching up on a polished kitchen steel, which keeps the edge aligned and will also refine it somewhat. After a period of a few weeks' realignment with the polished steel, the edge will become brittle/weak from work-hardening, after which I'll take it back to the Fine side of the India stone to remove the weakened steel and reset a strong, durable edge. Doesn't take a lot of metal removal to do that. Then, back to the polished steel for maintenance, for a few more weeks.

For at-home use on a few kitchen knives especially, decent quality diamond hones like DMT's will last indefinitely. The Dia-Fold I mentioned above is one I've used for something over 20 years, with no detectable degradation in performance. Using them at moderate pressure, and with lubrication (I prefer mineral oil) will go even further to make them last a long, long time.

 

[SubMicron]

There are zero diamond sharpening products that will last forever. With all of them, you can wear them out.

How long they last depends entirely on you, the pressure you use, the steel you sharpen, and the frequency. Most should expect diamond sharpening products to last several years at least. Generally they are indeed long term products.

With that said, if you're not sharpening more than VG10, you do not need diamond.

Traditional stones, in all their varieties, will do a better job. If you want to keep it simple, I recommend the "splash and go" variety instead of the soaking stones, slurry stones, oil stones, etc.

Splash and Go minimizes the screwing around and does as good of a job as anything.

The ones I chose are Shapton Glass but there are other good ones too.

I do own a full progression of various Atoma and DMT DiaSharp plates. I get better results with Atoma than I do DMT. If I'm not sharpening a very high Vanadium carbide steel, I use the Shapton Glass.

To lap/flatten my Shapton stones, I use an Atoma diamond plate.

 

[Barmaley]

With that said, if you're not sharpening more than VG10, you do not need diamond.

VG10 have tendencies to crack. I got a cheap VG10 from Amazon for $40 and is it really hard. I think it was not properly harden (too hard) and it chips on cutting meat with bones. So it has to be sharpen often. In addition the knife in my opinion is too think for VG10. I think about converting it to soft staff cutting (boneless meat, veggies etc) but I would need to thin it. This is why I think about getting a diamond. I don't think thinning a knife on a ceramic is a good idea.

If you want to keep it simple, I recommend the "splash and go" variety

Based on the name it looks like I need to splash it before use. It means that it is already messy. Diamonds and ceramic can work dry. The benefit of ceramics is that they last forever; I am not sure about splash and go.

 

[Blues]

With splash and go you can do as little as use a spray bottle to wet the surface of the hone. It's not a big deal.

(I also enjoy the convenience of diamond and ceramics not requiring any lubrication...though some choose to use water or oil with theirs.)

 

[SubMicron]

The problem with diamonds is how much they chew up the fine edge, especially on normal knife steels. Diamond creates a gnarled mess at the apex, and if you're already having chipping problems, this wont help.

Before you attempt a thinning, which may not be necessary, and purchase long term tools with a one time task in mind (thinning), and if you haven't already, you could try a less acute edge bevel. From there, test the edge, perhaps with different grits and strops to get the desired effect at the edge.

With the right sharpening tools, you can whittle a hair off a 600 grit edge, and minimal stropping, as well achieve a 1200 grit edge that's toothy, aggressive, and whittles a hair.

With freehand sharpening, and with higher quality guided systems, you can radically change the slicieness and durability to meet your needs.

 

[SubMicron]

Really though, there's no reason why you cant do a combination of diamond and ceramic. In fact, in some cases, it's highly advisable.

For course grits, go with diamond. They cut the fastest. With diamond it's easy to go too course. Be careful with anything under 400 grit at the edge... too course will destroy your apex.

If your not sharpening high Vanadium carbide steels, I'd recommend transitioning to ceramic around the medium grit.

For example, I've moved from my diamond Atoma 400, to my ceramic Shapton Glass 500, then 1K, then Spyderco Ultrafine.

I have to say though that I've modified my Spyderco Ultra Fine significantly, no doubt voiding any kind of warranty. I've brought it to truly flat and turned it into a dual stone. I ran a progression against each side and finished each side at different grits.

 

[Craig James]

My two cents, I don’t like the feel I get off diamonds, they feel rough...

I don’t own a low grit diamond (I have a dmt coarse) but from what I’ve read you will struggle to get the same cutting speed off an atoma 140 as you would off an extra coarse, hard, silicon carbide stone - purely due to the pressure you can exert without damaging the diamond plate.
Regarding longevity, my chosera is so thick that I doubt I will get even half way through it in my lifetime, however it won’t cut those pesky high vanadium carbide steels. I don’t own any of those though so I can happily love my chosera without worrying about it.

 

[Barmaley]

Really though, there's no reason why you cant do a combination of diamond and ceramic. In fact, in some cases, it's highly advisable.

The reason is simple: I did not get my stimulus check yet

I have to say though that I've modified my Spyderco Ultra Fine significantly, no doubt voiding any kind of warranty. I've brought it to truly flat and turned it into a dual stone. I ran a progression against each side and finished each side at different grits.

I am a noob here. May I ask you to explain what did you do to it?

 

[David Martin]

What he likely did was change the surface texture. I did mine in the same manner. I purchases the fine stone and one side was not level. So, I leveled it and finished it to a finer feel. Thus, it gives a finer finish to the edge. The grit cannot be changed, you can only change the surface of
the stone. Which will wear back to it's original grit/ feel. But that will take some time. Now, I have a fine and x fine ceramic stone without spending 70$. Good luck, DM

 

[SubMicron]

May I ask you to explain what did you do to it?

Sure, and really I feel like a noob myself, because I am, however I'm happy to share what I can.

Using Silicon Carbide sandpaper, on top of glass, with water on the sandpaper, I rubbed the stone in a circular motion until it was flat. I scribbled all over it with pencil, and kept at it until every bit was white and the whole stone was totally flat

I tried pouring 60 grit silicon carbide on glass and rubbing the stone on it but it just dished the glass and started to convex my stone.

I tried an inexpensive 140 grit diamond flattening plate, and it got it flat, but left deep scratches.

Finally I tried the Silicon Carbide sandpaper and it worked great. I took that side to 220 grit, tried it, and then left it there.

On the other side, I started with 220 grit, and kept at it with that grit until that whole side was flat. I then used my Atoma 400 and smoothed that side out more, tested it, and then finished it with 600 grit which leaves it very smooth.

For now that's how I left it. It's now a dual stone...The course side cuts more aggressively than the fine side.

I've considered using my Atoma 1200 to make the fine side even finer. I'd also like to return the Course side to a 150ish grit finish but without the deep scratches.

Now that its flat, I can quickly reset the surface of either side and make it courser or finer as needed. For now I'm happy with it as is.

 

[SubMicron]

What he likely did was change the surface texture. I did mine in the same manner. I purchases the fine stone and one side was not level. So, I leveled it and finished it to a finer feel. Thus, it gives a finer finish to the edge. The grit cannot be changed, you can only change the surface of
the stone. Which will wear back to it's original grit/ feel. But that will take some time. Now, I have a fine and x fine ceramic stone without spending 70$. Good luck, DM

My understanding is that the Spyderco Fine and Spyderco Ultrafine are the same stone, just finished differently.

How course or fine that its surface is finished at determines how course or fine that it will cut, up to an extent.

It's an incredibly dense and hard stone that doesn't really wear down, at least not in a meaningful way. It will hold its finish for a very long time.

 

[Flogger]

You can look through a pair of binoculars, backwards, in a pinch as well. I’ve done that on occasion. I just look through one barrel of the binos, not both.

 

[Barmaley]

You can look through a pair of binoculars, backwards, in a pinch as well. I’ve done that on occasion. I just look through one barrel of the binos, not both.

That was what I tried first and it did work to some extend but magnification is not strong enough. I am still looking for a solution. So far the best results are 20x binocular and 70-210 photo film lens. The benefit of photo lens is that it provides the highest quality picture, obviously because of the properties of glass. I think I will be happy if I could get at least 200x real magnification

 

[DaveDM]

Dino-lite makes some USB microscopes with up to 900x magnification.

https://www.dino-lite.com/productslist.php

 

[000Robert]

I have a Carson lighted magnified visor like this one. If that isn't good enough then I use a microscope. I really do not like to use loupes.

 

[MtnHawk1]

Dino-lite makes some USB microscopes with up to 900x magnification.

If you, or anyone else, is familiar with USB microscopes, would you please recommend a good power range for detailed knife edge examination?

I know these aren't electron microscopes but I would like to be able to clearly see the difference between edges sharpened with two different grits, or edge wear, for example. All I know about these microscopes is from the little I've read about them, so don't know what their advantages and disadvantages might be in the real world.

Thank you!

 

[SubMicron]

Your cell phone can take your loupe to the next level.

I just put my phone camera on the highest resolution settings and put the phone camera over the loupe. With some monkeying around, and getting the lighting right, you'll be able to get the phone camera to focus on the edge through the loupe.

From there, zoom in on the picture and take a screen shot of what you see.

Here's an example with a hair laying over the edge:

 

[bgentry]

Have you ever noticed how the old guys know stuff? Sometimes you don't listen to them and later on you figure out "Hey that old dude really was spot on. Why didn't I listen when he told me what to do?"

David Martin, is spot on here. A coarse DMT is not coarse enough to do real work. Apologies to Obsessed. If your edge is butter dull, a coarse DMT is going to take forever to reform the edge. Something closer to 100 grit is the ticket. A coarse Crystolon should work. I know the DMT XXC works. If you "don't like the feel of diamonds" then the DMT XXC might not be for you. The Barynox Manticore gets raves from a lot of people here too. It's very coarse.

What you may not realize is this: You do 90% or more of your grinding on the FIRST most COARSE stone you use. It's going to get all of the wear and tear. Ceramic stones like the Spydercos, or finer diamonds like the DMT EF and EEF just barely, barely get any wear at all. They will last forever and ever and ever. As long as they are used for finishing like they are intended.

Coarse stones are for shaping and forming the initial bevel. Medium, fine, (and beyond) stones are for polishing.

Your coarse stones might get replaced eventually. If you do enough grinding to make that necessary. Your medium and fine stones shouldn't get replaced ever. Unless you make the mistake of thinking that a medium or fine stone is for grinding. IN which case you can wear it out. In the process you will wear out your arms and make yourself very frustrated. Use the coarse stone. It's your friend.

Brian.

 

[onekerf]

Certainly not the best, but for my needs and at around $30 it's fine: BelOMO 10X, made in Belarus. They're made in 8, 12, 15, and 20X magnifications also.