Basic 11, KZII and TTKZ .... marathon session!

Thanks very much guys for the kind words .... to answer LVC's point and HISknife's concerns ... I did'nt use the KZII on the tree as the edge referred to needed rounding off ..... but that is all it needs .... let's not make mountains out of mole hills .... I remember when Mustard Man did a review on the TTKZ complaining it did'nt chop well .... the upshot of that was a lot of negativity towards the TTKZ .... now in fairness I did re-profile mine by re-grinding the convex edge to what I wanted and mine is now sorted .... and the KZII is a much more similar grind to my re-grind and it will no doubt chop like a demon ....

But if you have a sharp edge there is no point working with the blade as is .... it needs sanding and rounding off .... that will sort it out ....

I will post some pic's on what I do .... I may do a few things other than this but they are just for personal preference as to how I like things .... however rounding off a sharp edge is hardly a big issue in my eyes regarding the KZII .... the grind on the blade is from experience IMO very close to ideal .... round off that edge and you have the chance to use the knife in a rearward grip comfortably using the benefit of the long handle to give extra momentum .... if you want to do fuzz sticks or carving you can go for a closer grip toward the choil .... the balance is very neutral there ....

Maybe Jerry can pick up on this edge and round it off a little at the factory ? Like I said it is not a big point .... I have smoothed an awful lot of my knives from Busse on the grips .... the only ones I have'nt done this to are my NMFBM which came with magnum hand shaped grips and my SFNO LE which came again with the same type of hand shaped magnum grips .... those and all my Res C knives were fine from the shop .... the others were all tweaked ....

Hope that clears things up :thumbup:

In some respects because I am in the UK and sending the knives back to Busse is a bit of a none starter expense wise .... I got into the "DIY" side of things and now I am fairly immune to worrying about altering expensive knives .... but the KZII issue is 15 mins with a bit of wet and dry paper and easily done by anyone .... even if they are a novice at this sort of thing .... :)
 
Mate nice review! Looks like you had grea fun! Thanks for sharing.

I love my B11 too. I trimmed a few branches off some trees around my house the other day with it and I was thrilled with it's performance. For a light large knife, it works extremely well. Very comfy and bites deep when chopped into wood. Love it!
 
PeterPHWS said:
Thanks very much guys for the kind words .... to answer LVC's point and HISknife's concerns ... I did'nt use the KZII on the tree as the edge referred to needed rounding off ..... but that is all it needs .... let's not make mountains out of mole hills ....
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I didn't mean to imply that it was some kind of major flaw in the knife, I was just curious about what your plans for it were. having not used it, I wasn't sure if it was going to be too sharp or not. 5 minutes of sand paper work on the handles slab isn't anything to be worried about :thumbup:
 
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I was'nt meaning you LVC .... I was worried I had caused HISknife to feel "devastated" over the handle issue .... and did'nt want to start a rock rolling down hill just before these are released ....

My thoughts on the TTKZ handle being "ideal" I know are shared by you .... but the KZII should still be "up there" handle wise if tweaked ....

On a preference thing I may re-shape the pommel area .... I prefer a "single" grip and weight forward "feel" .... I may grind back the handle at the rear to take some length out of it to alter the balance forward and reduce the over all weight .... I also might curve the spine to one fluid shape as per the TTKZ out of personal asthetic preference .... but none of this "needs" to be done .... I just want a lighter more blade heavy balance .... then strip it .... anyway .... first things first .... I will sand that edge and see how it chops and do a review then ..... :thumbup:
 
I would love to see a head to head when you are done playing with the KZII compared to the TTKZ.... and what your thoughts are, and I'm sure everyone else here would too... Good job!
 
Sorry, I didn't want to sound so melodramatic. I'm pretty sure when I have the KZ2 one day, I will be able to mod the handle as well. I was just thrown off balance, as my experience with Busse were almost exlusively with Mistresses (except for one ASH-1) and handle was one thing I took for granted when it came to Busse knives. I mean my last NMFBM's handle was about as ideal as I could have experienced on a knife. But I await further review, sir, with bated breath. And I do immensely appreciate them.
 
HISknife said:
Sorry, I didn't want to sound so melodramatic. I'm pretty sure when I have the KZ2 one day, I will be able to mod the handle as well. I was just thrown off balance, as my experience with Busse were almost exlusively with Mistresses (except for one ASH-1) and handle was one thing I took for granted when it came to Busse knives. I mean my last NMFBM's handle was about as ideal as I could have experienced on a knife. But I await further review, sir, with bated breath. And I do immensely appreciate them.
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No worries .... hopefully Saturday I can get it done and do some more pic's .... there is still that other limb to sort and the downed one to cut into sections ...:thumbup:
 
PeterPHWS said:
Thanks very much guys for the kind words .... to answer LVC's point and HISknife's concerns ... I did'nt use the KZII on the tree as the edge referred to needed rounding off ..... but that is all it needs .... let's not make mountains out of mole hills .... I remember when Mustard Man did a review on the TTKZ complaining it did'nt chop well .... the upshot of that was a lot of negativity towards the TTKZ .... now in fairness I did re-profile mine by re-grinding the convex edge to what I wanted and mine is now sorted .... and the KZII is a much more similar grind to my re-grind and it will no doubt chop like a demon ....I totally read "HISknife" to have been "his knife, as apposed to the one I own", meaning my concerns were not necessarily shared by you.
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I totally read "HISknife" as "his knife, as apposed to the one I own", meaning my concerns were not necessarily shared by you.

This is what I've done to the scales on mine, it's not much but it keeps it from biting in at the corners.

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If I had to modify the design without just replacing it with the TT version (:p) I would just cut the palm side of the pommel flat. I may end up seeing if garth would shave it off and round out the lanyard hole. I wouldn't necessarily slope it as severely as the TT, just get it to where it goes straight back instead of curving back towards the palm.

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When I made the handle for my HI ang khola, I had a very similar flare at the bottom and after using it I ended up shaving it flat. The idea of the new design was to give you more control, people felt that the TT version was going to roll out of the hand. By having it flat you get that, but without the potential for it biting back into the palm on the down stroke.

The biggest thing to remember with this 'issue' is that it is mostly felt when you hand is choked back. when your hand is in the middle of the handle it's less likely to hit the pommel flare.

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Wish I could use this "red line" skill .... but if you bend the red line down so that the total eyelet is removed and the curve goes back to the spine .... that is what I might do .... the handle would still look proportional then and almost like it was done that way originally ....
 
PeterPHWS said:
Wish I could use this "red line" skill .... but if you bend the red line down so that the total eyelet is removed and the curve goes back to the spine .... that is what I might do .... the handle would still look proportional then and almost like it was done that way originally ....
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I edited the original to include the rounding to get rid of the cut-in-half hole

and here is the no-lanyard-hole flat from the palm swell version :D
gotta say, it would pretty good like this. not as severe as the TT, but more than enough to remove the pommel swell issues. actually, it looks a whole lot like the ergo handles, but with less difference between the index and pinky positions.
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I wish the empty section around the rear landyard hole was filled with micarta, without any holes. That probably would solve it without removing metals, huh? For a guy like me who lives in condo and cannot have any power tools...

I wonder if there might be a way to do this, using..... Bondo? Some sort of plastic resin?
 
Great job on a very nice review Peter! My place up here had the same kind of overgrowth just in 6 weeks with the large amount of rain this year. It provides plenty of INFI fodder though. :p

I have held, but haven't played with either of the zillas yet, but I am extremely impressed with the stripped and sharpened B11 up here in the woods. It's a decent machete if you keep out of the choil. It also cleaned up my willow tree very nicely and was chopping clean through 5 cm branches at a 45 degree angle. It's amazing how such a powerhouse chopper is packed into that light of a package. :thumbup:

I am with you on the removing the upper part of the pommel down to just below the eyelet. I could see that being one of the first things I did to it if I got one. Having held your modded handles on the FSH and knowing we have the same taste in grips there, from a user's standpoint would you recommend a handle modded KZ2 or a blade grind modded TTKZ? I'll only be able to get one if at all any time soon so this info would be very helpful. :confused:

Cappy, IMHO, the sign of your handles being just right for you is being able to use them without gloves for extended periods of time and NOT developing blisters, aka, no hot spots. I don't use gloves with any of mine so that I can figure out what needs correcting, if anything. The B11 doesn't have any hot spots nor do any of the hand smoothed handles I have used, either factory or my own mods, but my mods take multiple attempts to dial it in to just right for me. Some of them don't take much work at all, while some take a lot. I do this as I figure relying on the chances of me having gloves permanently available when I need them most may lead to my hands being a couple of hurting units at a most inopportune moment. ;)
 
HISknife said:
I wish the empty section around the rear landyard hole was filled with micarta, without any holes. That probably would solve it without removing metals, huh? For a guy like me who lives in condo and cannot have any power tools...

I wonder if there might be a way to do this, using..... Bondo? Some sort of plastic resin?
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No. There are two issues at play, the sharpness of the micarta, and the nature of having a pommel flare that curves upward toward the palm. The part peter was talking about causing blisters is mostly the sharpness of the micarta, which can be rounded by sanding.

However, the pommel swell will still come up and hit the wrist/palm on the downstroke. this is most noticeable when you grip downward. in order to avoid having the pommel swell come up and hit your wrist, you have to keep it slightly angled so it comes up past the wrist on the palm side.

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When you grip it from the center the pommel swell isn't that big of a problem, but when you grip it farther down:

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that pommel swell becomes much more noticeable. The only way around this is to lessen the upsweep by taking off metal like the picture in my previous post with the red line on it. my understanding of how pommel swells interact with the hand is based on past experience with khukuries rather than the kz2, it is inherent in the khukuri handle design. The kz2 is basically a traditional khukuri handle shape, and thus has some of the inherent flaws in that design. I think peters modification, where the palm swell is continued on it's downard slope so that the rear lanyard hole is removed is an ideal solution. It would make a handle shape that is very similar to the older ergo handles, but much improved. You would still get the long handle for multiple grip positions and the wide curve/berth for wrist snaps, but without the pommel flare in the wrist problem.

In a normal or choked up grip, you probably won't notice it. It's a traditional shape that is good as it is, it would just be more versatile with the pommel flare clipped off on the palm side.
 
I can say only thanks to the input on the subject as I was wondering about that myself when I got to handle them earlier and even though it confirms my feelings......now seeing the "quick fixes" and such make me start thinking on going after one now. Please keep the insight comming :thumbup:
 
HISknife, I agree with LVC on his post addressing your query .... in truth though I have'nt used the KZII having simply sanded down the sharpish edge .... but for the majority of people I expect once that is done you have no problems .... I guess it depends on how you use the knife and for how long and how "hard" you want to hit.

To maximise hitting hard a comfortable rear grip using the benefits of the longer handle and gaining in momentum makes sense .... that's how I use the TTKZ .... albeit the TTKZ is not as long in the handle and seems more of a "one grip" does all .... I don't recollect consciously changing grips on the TTKZ as it seems to work perfectly when you initially take a grip on the knife .... but I do like a blade heavy feel for chopping .... experience tells me they always bite deeper and work more quickly and easily .... the long handle on the KZII is a counterbalance oppertunity ... a forward grip gives a blade lighter feel for finer work such as fuzz sticks and a rear grip better momentum for chopping. The TTKZ you need to balance the blade a bit on your thigh for doing a lot of fine work .... I suspect this won't be needed for the KZII.

The thing about the traditional Khukri shape which I assume when feed back was delivered and I assume some people were saying "go for it" as the swell to the rear swell acts as a stop gap to prevent the knife sliding forward and out of your hand .... is in my enquiries into the design something of a misnomer ....

Knives designed for people working in very cold climates .... and Nepal is one of the highest and coldest .... often have swelled pommells because when working with gloves and using a knife ..... especially a sharp knife which could go through them .... the native people nearly always determine a technique for knife use is to cut by pulling the blade backwards .... never forwards ....

Scandi knives that are traditional and not bushcraft models all have a swell to the rear and so do khukri's .... some khukri's have a ring round the middle of the middle palm swell .... again for as I understand it working with gloves and cold weather .... they offer "fixing" points of contact .... other khukri's don't have this feature .... perhaps because it makes for a very uncomfortable grip without the benefit of a thick glove ... maybe because they are meant for none covered hand use .... certainly the issue khukri I had for a good 14-15 years did'nt have that ring feature ...

But for cold use the swelled pommel remained and is as I understand it for pull cutting and not chopping and acting as a backstop ....

However in temperate climates where it is'nt so cold .... where more chopping is done .... and knives used are often traditional machetes .... the handles don't evolve with this feature but more of a curved away upper rear as per a TTKZ handle or the BWM handles .... and rely on the lower curve to anchor the blade and enable a chopping stroke of a simple wrist flick or rocking motion to be done .... making use of the knife's weight and being less tiring .... for me I like this feature better .... most of my use is in warm climates and I always chop using that technique .... in scandanavia they prefer axes for chopping but again the axe haft has a lower curve only at the pommel and not a palm swell .... so the same reasons and benefits apply and have been ironed out over the centuries ....

There is however some mixed knowledge on why things are done .... I have heard from some that the ring of wood or ebony in the middle palm swell of a khukri is to assist with the idea of wrist rocking when chopping .... and that a swell to the rear is an ideal feature for safety and control when chopping .... IMO this is incorrect .... but it may have filtered through past Jerry and Garth when re-designing the KZII .... however they know more than anyone how to do a great handle .... my BWM handles and the TTKZ are the best I have for comfort .... but unless you are in a cold climate I don't see the need for rear full circle swells .... and interestingly both traditional scandi's and khukri's have enclosed hidden tangs .... the reason being an exposed tang in a cold climate can create a skin weld to the steel which can happen in very cold conditions. So combine the tang design and the rear palm swell and the pulling cutting techniques .... it makes more sense that these are the reasons than being advantageous for chopping .... and for me I like the traditional lower curve or hook design on the TTKZ and the BWM's and the Ergo's and Fusion handles for this purpose.

Anyway ... food for thought .... :thumbup:
 
AZTimT said:
Having held your modded handles on the FSH and knowing we have the same taste in grips there, from a user's standpoint would you recommend a handle modded KZ2 or a blade grind modded TTKZ? I'll only be able to get one if at all any time soon so this info would be very helpful. :confused:
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I don't know yet ... the KZII has'nt really had a fair work out with the sharp edge simply rounded off ...

The TTKZ being fully convex needs a belt sander to sharpen it to do it justice .... and if you have the skills for sharpening these then you have the same skills for altering the grind by thinning it .... it is just a long sharpening session ..... perhaps altering and using the angles of your hands to re-profile the edge acuteness for different parts of the blade. Also I use a very tight belt or double belt to make sure I don't thin the spine down at the top of the curved effect the belt creates .... going near to the upper pulley helps in this .... the idea being to make the lower grind area more of a V curved appleseed shape than a thicker pear drop shape :thumbup:

If I had to chose I like the TTKZ re-ground for the weight forward feel and power it can deliver and the handle is the most comfortable of any I have on a Busse with the exception perhaps of the BWM LE with the smoothed grips .... it is a pretty hard act to beat ... but it is more expensive than the KZII ....and I have'nt really modded the KZII as to how I may choose to do if I wanted a bit lighter knife .... so I cannot say for sure .... but for me at least I think the longer grips are not my "ideal" .... they make sense .... but I sort of prefer to work with one good fixed grip.... I think ....:D Give me a bit more time and I should know for sure ....
 
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Well Tim .... I did some simple sanding as LVC had done and tried out the grip .... did one side and compared it by using it right handed and then left .... the left hand having the original shape on the other side .... smoothing the edge does sort out the problem and improve the element of comfort .... but it does'nt make the handle upsweeped talon hole pinnacle feel as comfortable "to me" as the TTKZ handle with a more "Busse" style downward sloping shape.

It is however perfectly good enough from the perspective that it is not "uncomfortable" at all .... and my own preferences have simply dictated my decision to modify the handle .... please understand that I am not saying there is anything wrong at all with the KZII.

So taking the plunge I decided to re-grind the handle pommel as per the discussion above ... and then I went ahead and curved the spine and stripped the blade .... here are some pic's of the results ....

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The downsweeped grip on the handle spine certainly feels better for me when chopping .... there is no "catching" at all on my palm or wrist ....

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