Batoning is not such a great idea, right?

[Bumppo]

Sometimes I have my own baton, it is a good bushcraft exercise, like carving a spoon. Something different but still usefull to pass the time with. Sometimes, in tight quarters, it is safer to baton through small branches to get a clear swing than it is to just swing away through the springy little branches that deflect your larger knife or axe. A baton can also be used as a throwing stick, so there is another reasom to have one, and they can even be used as a source of dry wood if you need that.

 

[tipoc]

I thought this thread was about cheerleaders. I am disappointed.

The fellas who have said that they baton because they like it and it is fun and they enjoy using their knives that way are quite honest and I trust their opinions.

I was born in 1954. I was taken camping as an infant. I've been out in the outdoors, fishing, hunting and camping a good many times over the years. The first time I heard of batoning was on the internet a couple of years back.

My father worked for the CDF fighting fires for 35 years before retiring. 20 of those as a captain. I asked him if he had ever heard of the practice. "Why would someone do that to a knife?" he wanted to know. He had known a man who had become trapped in a rockslide and had used a sharp rock and a buck 110 to cut his own foot off and figured batoning might come in handy in that situation.

In camp I keep a hatchet. In my pack is a light weight saw, about a pound I guess. I use it for game. I keep 3 interchangeable blades for it with me. Each about 7" long. One for wood, one metal and one for bone.

tipoc

 

[cziv]

Where I live there's an abundance of wooded areas. Bigger limbs and kindling are easy to find too. It's the in between stuff that needs to be processed in some way to get a nice fire going.

I always carry the basics of what it takes me to start a fire in my car glovebox or when out hunting, hiking etc. where you might have to make a fire to survive a cold night, make a signal or lunch.

I carry my fire kit in a 1/2 size sandwich baggie - fits in a pocket easily. The contents 1 folder, 3 cotton balls, 1 tube of vasoline lip balm (to apply to cotton ball in case of harsh conditions) and one of several cheap ESEE fire starter rods. Simple enough!

I made a nice fire to show how simple it is. I could have shot more pics or made a bonfire for that matter, but you get the point. I think being able to start a fire easily should be in every outdoorsmen's baggie of tricks!

Dry ground (or elevated from wet ground) as your base.

Gather kindling, shave some wood and process slightly larger hunks of wood. Drive the folder into the wood in the locked position.

Unlock the folder and pull down on the handle and baton the tip to avoid damage to knife.

Get your kindling down, spread out your cotton ball & stack up some dry shavings. Have your smaller processed peices ready to build on the small fire that will pop up.

Build up fire with wood you batoned with folder (or FB knife)

Keep increasing size to boil water, cook, dry clothes, keep warm, protection, signals etc.

Equipment list for today

Knife locks up as brand new, no play in any direction, still slices paper w/o effort. Ontario RAT-1 folder $24.

 

[singularity35]

If it's really necessary, I know that some smart guys can come up with the proper way to batton without breaking your knife. Excellent post cziv. :thumbup:

 

[Marion David Poff]

Baton naked!

That's the way we roll! and bounce...

HIT IT AGAIN, I THINK I SAW IT MOVE!!


This is one of those topics that never fails get a good argument started. Those who don't probably never will. Those of us who do probably won't stop.

Nice! I just about laughed my spleen onto my laptop.

That is one of the best images...... Ever. Combining the joy of Office Space with the truth of beating a dead horse....


To the OP....

Split wood takes flame better. Wood at the heart of the bolt is usually the driest. I don't always carry an axe.


Here is something I wrote, in another thread....



"This is like so many things...

Each side looks at the other and wonders, until some point, when they fall back on...

"For those who understand no explanation is needed, ...For those who don't none will do". - Jerry Lewis



I baton, and it works, and as long as you keep your wits about you, it works well.

There was a really long thread, which you might like to read...

"Batoning, what is the controversy?" - http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=662387

I started the thread, coming from the other side...

Here is a quote of what I said, my summary....

Well...

I still don't see the controversy....

I understand that there are those who think the practice is abusive, and I guess I would agree with them, with the caveat that anything can be abusive, if done excessively.

And I agree that some people claim that they are batoning, when really they are just whacking the crap out of a knife with a big stick.

I would say that there is such a thing as proper batoning technique. That, knowing the limitations of the tools at hand, and the range of resistance and stress likely given the wood to be split or cut, one can properly apply the technique of batoning to accomplish their goal.

I do think that batoning a bolt is appropriate. When I go out, I often bolt a tree with a saw, and I will then select bolts that fit my tools, to split them, and make the structural members for the my fire lay, then, I will split the rest of the bolts, so that they will more easily take fire.

Have I damaged a knife this way, yes. I bent a Cold Steel Bushman, but it was my fault, the bolt of wood was too big, my mistake. But, the other side of that coin is that I decided I wanted a knife that was capable of batoning that size of wood, and discontinued using the Bushman (though there were other factors involved).

Usually now, I attack the bolts with my Bill Siegle Cutlass, which is sufficiently thick and strong to handle the task.

Improper Batoning Technique would be using The Cutlass's friend to try and split a bolt....

And I would like to respond to the comments about "first hearing about batoning on the internet"....


I know that one of the pre-eminent bushcraft and outdoor skills teachers of our lives, mentioned it in his book printed in 1987, and I wonder if it was in the book before that.

" A knife makes a poor chopping tool as it has no weight behind it. However if the knife back is struck with something heavy, it can make respectable cuts. Any sound, heavy stick (baton) that is comfortable to hold, will assist a knife in cutting down and limbing small trees, splitting wood and making many cutting operations easier and faster. Trees about 10 centimetres in diameter and too thick to bend can be cut down in a few minutes with a baton.
The knife used with a baton must be sturdy enough to withstand the abuse or it will bend or break. Using a folding knife puts a severe strain on the blade pin."
Mors Kochanski pg 116 Bushcraft Outdoor Skills and Wilderness Survival

I have never considered Mors Kochanski to be a controversial figure, I would think that he would probably be considered conservative.

Where did he learn it? I think this technique pre-dates the internet.

When was the froe invented? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Froe




Best,
Marion

 

[A.P.F.]

I just find it interesting that neither Horace Kepheart or Nessmuk, mention anything about 'batonning' (sic) in their writings. They seemed to do just fine in the woods.

 

[tipoc]

Take it as true that many first heard of batoning on the internet. This includes many who have experience in making fires and wood craft.

First there are a number of things I first heard of on the internet. Some useful and some I'm sorry I did hear of. In and of itself the point is not a big one.

Second, at best the practice was not well known or widely used till recently. It was not viewed as a "test" for knives. It was used occasionally and for light emergency tasks. The use we see of it on the internet is a more recent thing.

Third till recently (a decade or two) knives were not designed with batoning in mind. The bowie, Scagel type, Buck 120, Randalls, Loveless, hunting and skinning knives in general were not built with batoning in mind. If cutting up wood was the chore than tools for that were bought and brought for that purpose.

This does not mean that this technique of making larger pieces of wood smaller is useless or a bad thing. It has it's place. It is my opinion it is overhyped some.


tipoc

 

[cziv]

This does not mean that this technique of making larger pieces of wood smaller is useless or a bad thing. It has it's place. It is my opinion it is overhyped some.


tipoc

To baton wood or not could be the differece between life or death. Staying lost or being found. I've batoned wood occasionally for over 45 years. Sometimes there's not a proper size limb or very small log to add to your wood shavings and kindling fire to get it to progress into a full blown fire.

I don't think you can fail to stress any of the steps in building a fire from the essential elements with the luxury, of course, of a firestarter or a match/lighter. YMMV

 

[A.P.F.]

Take it as true that many first heard of batoning on the internet. This includes many who have experience in making fires and wood craft.

First there are a number of things I first heard of on the internet. Some useful and some I'm sorry I did hear of. In and of itself the point is not a big one.

Second, at best the practice was not well known or widely used till recently. It was not viewed as a "test" for knives. It was used occasionally and for light emergency tasks. The use we see of it on the internet is a more recent thing.

Third till recently (a decade or two) knives were not designed with batoning in mind. The bowie, Scagel type, Buck 120, Randalls, Loveless, hunting and skinning knives in general were not built with batoning in mind. If cutting up wood was the chore than tools for that were bought and brought for that purpose.

This does not mean that this technique of making larger pieces of wood smaller is useless or a bad thing. It has it's place. It is my opinion it is overhyped some.


tipoc

To baton wood or not could be the differece between life or death. Staying lost or being found. I've batoned wood occasionally for over 45 years. Sometimes there's not a proper size limb or very small log to add to your wood shavings and kindling fire to get it to progress into a full blown fire.

I don't think you can fail to stress any of the steps in building a fire from the essential elements with the luxury, of course, of a firestarter or a match/lighter. YMMV

All valid points and in all honesty, I never considered the aspect of purpose built knives for batonning. I suppose that would explain the multitude of what I see as 'sharpened pry-bars' out there. Anyway, cool beans. I'll just retire to my cave of antiquity until the next time I have to come out shaking my fist at what the 'youngsters' are doing.

 

[cziv]

All valid points and in all honesty, I never considered the aspect of purpose built knives for batonning. I suppose that would explain the multitude of what I see as 'sharpened pry-bars' out there. Anyway, cool beans. I'll just retire to my cave of antiquity until the next time I have to come out shaking my fist at what the 'youngsters' are doing.

You're welcome to take a night off from the Cave of Antiquity and stop by my Fortress of Solitude to discuss knives and imbibe. Get a little/lot zooted, baton a board or two and shake our fists at the world!

 

[A.P.F.]

You're welcome to take a night off from the Cave of Antiquity and stop by my Fortress of Solitude to discuss knives and imbibe. Get a little/lot zooted, baton a board or two and shake our fists at the world!

Best darn idea I have heard in a long time! :thumbup:

 

[texas gun person]

I would rather carry a large knife around versus a axe or hatchet... and I do when I go camping/back packing. A knife is just easier to deal with and can perform more tasks versus a axe or hatchet.

 

[dawsonbob]

All valid points and in all honesty, I never considered the aspect of purpose built knives for batonning. I suppose that would explain the multitude of what I see as 'sharpened pry-bars' out there. Anyway, cool beans. I'll just retire to my cave of antiquity until the next time I have to come out shaking my fist at what the 'youngsters' are doing.

You young folks crack me up.

 

[lambertiana]

It can be very useful at times. On a backpacking trip four years ago, I found access to the only viable crossing of the Kern River at Junction Meadow blocked by a very large aspen that had fallen over. The only way we could make the crossing was to baton off the branches so that we could go under the trunk.

 

[Hawkings]

I just find it interesting that neither Horace Kepheart or Nessmuk, mention anything about 'batonning' (sic) in their writings. They seemed to do just fine in the woods.

Well some people just don't know real woodsman skills, really no reason to talk down about the two fellows, I'm sure they did the best they could.

Lets just see who bide, shall we.

 

[Skimo]

Batoning is natural, I was doing it before I ever heard of anything but Buck or Gerber and the internet.... pretty sure it wasn't really around.

I didn't think I had thought of the best thing ever, to me it was a knife acting like a small wedge for me. Tossing Nessmuk and kephart into it is weak, 'THEY DIDN'T MENTION IT SO IT'S NOT LEGITIMATE!' is not a valid stance. Working with wood isn't a sport, there aren't any rules saying that batoning is a no-no.

Very much a don't ask don't tell (at least on the internet) subject, I don't want you guys calling up the SPCK and reporting that I abuse my knives...

 

[A.P.F.]

You young folks crack me up.

The phrase 'Older than dirt' just ran through my head, Bob.

Well some people just don't know real woodsman skills, really no reason to talk down about the two fellows, I'm sure they did the best they could.

Lets just see who bide, shall we.

Good one! LOL

 

[thejamppa]

IMHO in bushcraft axe is valuable asset, which Nessmuk had his combination: Axe Nessmuk knife and slipjoint, most I've seen Moose-pattern. I am sure Mr. Kephart had Axe too. There's no other rules in outdoors except: survive.

Now batoning with knife: Modern world steel's, alloys and such have developed such great magnitude that if modern outdoors knife can't take batoning, its crap. Bushcraft and outdoor knives should take batoning without breaking the knife, unless you try to hit petrified wood with it or cut down great redwood...

I've batoned my 12 + year user puukko with rat-tails tang several times and no problem. I've batoned with Busse GameWarden no problem, Ka-Bar USMC, Becker BK-7 no problem. I think Batoning is still one standard for modern outdoors or survival knife to deal with it.

 

[singularity35]

I was watching bamboo craftsmen baton bamboos when I was a tike. In grade 6 we were taught how to split bamboos in trade class. It's really the best way to split a piece of bamboo so you can work it into smaller and workable pieces. Using a saw to split bamboo takes a lot of time. Batoning cuts bamboo splitting time in about a third of the time depending on the length. I just didn't know it was called batoning. We just called it splitting the bamboo.

 

[all hood allen]

I've batoned my 12 + year user puukko with rat-tails tang several times and no problem. I've batoned with Busse GameWarden no problem, Ka-Bar USMC, Becker BK-7 no problem. I think Batoning is still one standard for modern outdoors or survival knife to deal with it.

i can say baton with my puukko also, great knife design tried and true. excellent when pair with a 7-9 inch blade.

kellam fang is my choice nowadays.