Batoning Large Wood With a Small Blade

[runningboar]

It is kinda funny how much the topic of batoning wood turns up in forums. Kinda like a right of passage, or measure of one's skill.

EXACTLY!!!!

I have been accused of being a recluse, and never leaving my property. Truth is I am almost never in a house, I never meant to offend anyone, I was asking a serious question. I see a lot of people using knives for things I have honestly never done and see no reason for. I also see bunches of people carrying huge thick short swords into the woods and I don't know why, I use a 3 to 4" knife for virtually everything I use a knife for, I have a small axe I carry for heavy stuff, I also have a wyoming saw for processing game and cutting wood. Once again forgive me for whatever it is that I said that offended, by all means continue to do whatever it is that you enjoy and think is neccessary, and I will do the same.

 

[Temper]

Dude, you have got to get away for a while and have a break!

I dont think anyone here was really offended. This section of the forum used to be free from conflict and the Mall Ninja crowd in general. Then about a year or so ago it became quite confrontational and frankly not a great place to be. Its quietened down somewhat as of late, but I think a lot of us here are still a little unsure about relative new comers intentions.

 

[DOC-CANADA]

We just finished going through this very same discussion on the Camillus forum. See:
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=407973

To each, their own.

Doc

 

[runningboar]

Thanks for the link Doc, it does seem to be a fairly even split with both sides firmly entrenched. I guess what some people call normal use others call abuse I tend to be on the abuse side and would not do any of that stuff with a knife I cared anything for. The biggest thing for me is I see absolutely no need for it, everyone keeps talking about for a fire, I build fires and have never needed to split logs with my knife to get one started. I think it is a way for knife manufacturers to show how tough their knife is and they have convinced a certain amount of the population into thinking it is neccessary, common, and a knife skill worth learning, I disagree.

Knives keep getting bigger and thicker to stand up to this abuse also, and getting away from their original use....cutting. My big field knife is an old hickory butcher knife that I paid about 10 dollars for and I still would not dream of beating it through a log, but I can quarter a deer or hog in few minutes with it. Yes that is the sheath that it stays in when it is in my pack, and you can lather up and shave with it too although it doesn't hold an edge like some of the gee whiz knives but I don't mind touching it up when I am working.

 

[pict]

Thinking about this topic a bit I was trying to remember the times I actually felt like I NEEDED to baton a piece of wood for a fire. I do teach this technique when I run my course but I keep it in the context of "this is something you can do if you need to".

The times I can remember feeling the need I was usually building a fire in the shelter of some big rock wall or overhang while it was raining hard and I was soaking wet. Batonning a chunk of wood into kindling was as much about keeping me from having to go out into the rain and look for stuff that would burn as it was about making sure the fire got lit.

I agree that batonning gets overplayed, necessary and common, no. Occasionally useful and something you should be familiar with, yes. If you dayhike or backpack and don't carry an axe, hatchet, or machete, just a small to medium knife you should learn how to use it to do big blade stuff without breaking the knife. Small knives are far more capable than you think. I teach batonning with a Mora, the kind of lightweight knife a dayhiker is likely to carry along. Mac

 

[runningboar]

Thank you Mac, that is the most sensible answer to my question I have heard yet. I have batoned my machete, me and my son, the young man pictured in the pics above, had an interest in learning to build a fire by friction. I split a dry poplar branch to build a fireboard, and the 12" machete worked wonderfully for this. The thought of pounding my beloved AFCK through a dry stick, the knife that is always with me, makes me sick to my stomach. Chris

 

[Cliff Stamp]

I think it is a way for knife manufacturers to show how tough their knife is and they have convinced a certain amount of the population into thinking it is neccessary, common, and a knife skill worth learning, I disagree.

This was around long before it was promoted by the current makers of tactical knives. Lee shows it in his book on sharpening as a use of common hack knives in the shop.

Knives keep getting bigger and thicker to stand up to this abuse also, and getting away from their original use....cutting.

There have always been knives of design similar to the current large wood chopping bowies, the parangs, khukuris, etc. . Knives as well don't need to be overly thick to do that type of work, people do it with 1/16" blades on a regular basis. Folders are more problematic as it can overstress the lock.

Some folding knives are build to purposely take high loads on the locks, this was integral to Ritters development of his RSK and he has promoted batoning on it to cut and split wood. He is an advocate of not introducing axes or other chopping tools to those interested in woodcraft/survival and thus depends on that small folding knife to do a lot of work most would do with an axe or parang.

-Cliff

 

[Thomas Linton]

Being prepared to survive includes being able to adapt and improvise. A piece of glass may be your cutting tool, a credit card your tinder, a stick your shovel, two hard rocks your signaling device, your flashlight batteries your "lighter," and a discarded beer can your "pot."

A knife may certainly be your tool to open wood.

 

[laurens]

I think battening is not that stressful on a knife as it seems. If you think about the knife edge only comes into contact with the wood for a short time once the knife has entered the wood a inch or so the sides of the knife are doing the splitting rather than the edge which is not touching the wood.(this is assuming the wood is relatively straight grained and free of large knots that may not split).Some people use the knife to make the initial split and then use a wooden wedge or use the wedge if the knife is struggling. Lots of people batten mora’s without ill affect(although ive heard of a few brokern ones)
The other sort of battening where a branch is used to pound the knife trough wood essentially turning it into a chopping tool would probably be far more stressful particularly if used on dead wood.

 

[kel_aa]

Knives keep getting bigger and thicker to stand up to this abuse also, and getting away from their original use....cutting.

A short Ka-bar, based on a 60 year old design, is a 5 inch blade with a 10 degree primary grind on 4 mm stock. Compare that with some of the flat grind deer hunter designs that have a 4 degree or so grind on 4mm stock. What is all that extra metal good for but to baton and pry with?

development of his RSK and he has promoted batoning on it to cut and split wood.

Has he demonstrated this? Was he doing (wood < blade) or (wood => blade) batoning?

 

[DOC-CANADA]

The thought of pounding my beloved AFCK through a dry stick, the knife that is always with me, makes me sick to my stomach. Chris

Back in 1996, the late Chris Janowsky of the World Survival Institute, Tok, Alaska did an article for American Survival Guide (now defunct) called 'Choosing the Right Survival Knife' and coincidentally, the AFCK is the one he chose for a folder. The knives were subjected to all kinds of abuse including: "At this point I didn't know whether these knives were friend or foe, but one thing for sure: no more Mister Nice Guy.I took the knives out near my firewood pile and split wood by beating on them with a club to drive them through. The wood split and the knives were just fine. The Benchmade Folding Knife was hit at the point where it is hinged and it should have broken, but it didn't. This test was repeated several times because I just couldn't believe that a folding knife could withstand this particular type of abuse."

I also would not baton my AFCK, unless necessary.

You mention about batoning a machete to make a fireboard and this is one of those times when batoning works well. I have batoned knives for years, when applicable and have never damaged any knives including the small but tough Mora designs. One other thing to throw into the mix. It has been mentioned before that an axe should be used for this kind of work. I have a bad back, and cannot swing an axe, but batoning my machete, Machax, or even Mora fills the bill for me. And one last thing, this is a survival forum so the techniques discussed may not be best-use of any equipment, just expedient.

Doc

 

[Cliff Stamp]

What is all that extra metal good for but to baton and pry with?

The same applies to the AFCK, it isn't as if that is a knife designed to simply cut things. In fact the steel is tempered at the point of maximum toughness not where it is hardened for maximum cutting ability either. Combine this with the promotion of extreme lock strength and it certainly doesn't describe a knife that should be adverse to handling work you can do with a butter knife.

Has he demonstrated this? Was he doing (wood < blade) or (wood => blade) batoning?

There was an article in a mag, and he has commented on it directly :

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3115556&postcount=18

-Cliff

 

[runningboar]

The same applies to the AFCK, it isn't as if that is a knife designed to simply cut things. In fact the steel is tempered at the point of maximum toughness not where it is hardened for maximum cutting ability either. Combine this with the promotion of extreme lock strength and it certainly doesn't describe a knife that should be adverse to handling work you can do with a butter knife.



There was an article in a mag, and he has commented on it directly :

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3115556&postcount=18

-Cliff

If you can clean a fish, cut a bur out of your dogs fur, clean a squirrel, skin a deer, slice tomatoes or any of the other millions of things I do with a sharp knife with a butter knife you know much more about knives than I do.

You bring up some very good points about knives that are built for chopping and batoning. None of it changes the fact that I can't come up with a reason to do it, survival situation or otherwise.

Another thing, just because a knife will take abuse does not mean I will abuse it, I don't baby my gear but I don't stress it to the max either. I have 2 AFCKs, one I carry and a spare in the box, if I never have to get the spare out of the box I will be happy.

 

[runningboar]

And one last thing, this is a survival forum so the techniques discussed may not be best-use of any equipment, just expedient.

Doc

If I was in a true survival situation I would baby my gear all the more because if I destroy it then I am screwed, I would be much more likely to break a limb over a rock then pound my knife through it. I understand about not being able to swing an axe because of an injury, but back to my original question what do yall do with all these split sticks?


EDIT: I do know one reason, I have seen cedar shakes split with a fro and a mallet, you can build a log cabin and make your own shingles.

 

[Ebbtide]

Welcome RB.
The class is split on the sharpened prybar issue...oops... I guess you know where I stand.
To each his own.
Batonning is a good skill to have, not the only way to get it done.
In my dad's woodwork shop he batonned wood alot.
But he used a hammer and chisel

 

[Cliff Stamp]

... with a butter knife

You have to sharpen it first of course. I know makers who use that class of materials as knives, mild steel, even aluminum, etc. . Not everyone has access to high end tool steels. Locally they see a lot of use as lures for fish. They are way cheaper to buy than actual spinners.

can't come up with a reason to do it ...

Then don't do it. However it isn't a big leap to realize that different techniques may be more effective for different people in different areas. If I want to start a fire with a bunch of Alders they will burn far better if I split them first. Can I shave them down, sure, however it is far faster to split them and if you know how to do it and minimize the loads on the knife then it can be done with fairly light knives readily :

That is a Spyderco Delica.

Another thing, just because a knife will take abuse does not mean I will abuse it ...

If a knife is designed to be used in a certain manner, the maker/manufacturers promotes it, and isn't damaged by said use how can it possibly be called abuse.

-Cliff

 

[Thomas Linton]

I was taught to baton wood over forty years ago in a survival course. Nothing new, although the instructor called it the "contact method." Haven't damaged a knife yet doing it -- or tried to, but I hope I have some feel for using the knives I have used.

You asked. We answered. You are not satisfied to the extent that you seem unwilling to even try the technique. That is often the way of things.

 

[runningboar]

Cliff,
I will go head to head, your sharpened butter knife against my benchmade. I know you were talking about my butcher knife, like you said it suits my purposes and has prepared a lot of my meals.

I am not so sure that I fit into this forum, paying a gazillion dollars for the latest and greatest busse mega knife that is not practical for anything and then pounding it through seasoned hickory just to see if it will do it is not my cup of tea.

Then when I ask a question about why people do it I get a bunch of flak about I am not an outdoorsman and I don't know what I am talking about when it comes to knives and a barely veiled snide comments about butter knives and no real answers about why you would baton wood. For a fire, that is BS, yall do it because you think there is some skill involved or it makes your knives look good.

Thanks for a warm welcome.

 

[runningboar]

I was taught to baton wood over forty years ago in a survival course. Nothing new, although the instructor called it the "contact method." Haven't damaged a knife yet doing it -- or tried to, but I hope I have some feel for using the knives I have used.

You asked. We answered. You are not satisfied to the extent that you seem unwilling to even try the technique. That is often the way of things.

I already said I tried it to make a fireboard and it is not very difficult, and I see no reason to do it on any sort of a regular basis. WHY WOULD I TRY THE TECHNIQUE FOR WHAT PURPOSE!!!!!!!!

 

[Thomas Linton]

Sir, you have been told, quite clearly, that batoning is an expedient way to open wood with a knife when other tools are not available. That does not mean it is the only way or that anyone is insisting that it must be your way. You were only urged to give it a try.

On the contary, you seem to be getting upset because we are not confessing the error of our collective ways -- in using a technique taught for generations by knowledgeable woodsmen and survial experts.

Relax. No one here is your enemy. Allow for differences of opinions. The world is wide.