- Joined
- Apr 14, 2006
- Messages
- 7,021
Vivi said:I've been making my first few snares recently using woven grass. It'll probably just get chewed through.
That's why you use a tip-up.
Doc
-
The BladeForums.com 2024 Traditional Knife is available! Price is $250 ea (shipped within CONUS).
Order here: https://www.bladeforums.com/help/2024-traditional/
Batoning Large Wood With a Small Blade
- Thread starter Dave568
- Start date
That's why you use a tip-up.
Doc
Coote got it up there a couple of replies ago, Batoning is splitting wood with a knife.
Presumably you don't have a wedge, hammer, axe, but you need to split wood.
I am a woodworker first and foremost, my great uncle was a cabinet maker, my uncle was carpenter, I worked with both of them and learned only fraction of their knowledge.
I did some research about more primitive woodworking, like back before power tools, way back, even to mideaval times.
Splitting, or batoning is one of the basic building blocks for more complex woodworking. Look at the 2 Main building blocks of woodworking as cutting (cross sawing) and the other being splitting, now more commonly known as "ripping" as with a toothed blade.
The carpenter of old went town to town, with only a few tools.
One thing they were known for was making their own tools.
They carried a saw blade with them, but would have to fashion their actual saw, which resembled a buck saw but is more correctly called a Frame Saw.
Splitting (batoning) was the means by which the carpenter could make a length of dimensioned wood, like a 2 " by 2" by 2 foot piece of oak. They would split or baton the wood.
I never called it batoning, if you were going with the grain, I called it splitting.
The two common roof designs were thatched and split shakes.
A froe is probably the most specialized "batoning" tool, developed over the ages from all of the split cedar shakes made through the ages.
In a camping or wilderness situation, I have "batoned" my own tent pegs.
If you ever had need for a flat cutting board, splitting a piece of straight grained wood, like Oak, is a good way to make a flat surface.
STRENGTH:
Consider this. which is stronger, a 1 foot piece of a 2inch diamter tree branch, or, a 2" by 2" batoned peice of wood from farther inside a tree?
Wood was joined with hardwood pegs that had been split from heartwood.
OK, so I have a hatchet or small axe , that is what I will be doing a majority of the splitting with. Good to go. The downside is that Axes are bulkier and heavier. With limited ability to carry things in the wilderness, I'd go with a good stout knife and cross cutting blade. I could fashion my own buck saw like the early carpenters, and still split (baton) logs for other uses, such as for tent pegs and tool making.
How do you split a 2 foot diamter log with a small knife?? You baton (split) small wedges of wood, then those small wedges are driven into natural cracks in the log, it may take 10 of them, beaten in with a stout peice of wood, but, it can be done.
The very Axe handle itself is fashioned from split wood. As is a hammer handle or any other wooden handle. If your axe handle broke in the wilderness, you could "baton" a new one, out of some nice strong hardwood, like ash.
Splitting (Batoning) is one of the basic components of woodworking.
Most of us, these days, think of a standard handsaw as primitive, but the Crosscut and Ripsaws made from spring steel are fairly modern, and were light years ahead of the primitive carpenter who even fashioned his own tools from the very wood he worked, as he travelled from town to town being contracted to perform his craft. He built anything from basic furniture, as commoners could not afford anything else up to and including entire houses, which took years to construct, along with the help of an apprentice.
"Batoning" is just a fancier, more specific word for "splitting" using a straight blade, like a knife.
Whether it be with an axe, maul, froe or a stout knife, I'll always call it "splittin" wood.
Presumably you don't have a wedge, hammer, axe, but you need to split wood.
I am a woodworker first and foremost, my great uncle was a cabinet maker, my uncle was carpenter, I worked with both of them and learned only fraction of their knowledge.
I did some research about more primitive woodworking, like back before power tools, way back, even to mideaval times.
Splitting, or batoning is one of the basic building blocks for more complex woodworking. Look at the 2 Main building blocks of woodworking as cutting (cross sawing) and the other being splitting, now more commonly known as "ripping" as with a toothed blade.
The carpenter of old went town to town, with only a few tools.
One thing they were known for was making their own tools.
They carried a saw blade with them, but would have to fashion their actual saw, which resembled a buck saw but is more correctly called a Frame Saw.
Splitting (batoning) was the means by which the carpenter could make a length of dimensioned wood, like a 2 " by 2" by 2 foot piece of oak. They would split or baton the wood.
I never called it batoning, if you were going with the grain, I called it splitting.
The two common roof designs were thatched and split shakes.
A froe is probably the most specialized "batoning" tool, developed over the ages from all of the split cedar shakes made through the ages.
In a camping or wilderness situation, I have "batoned" my own tent pegs.
If you ever had need for a flat cutting board, splitting a piece of straight grained wood, like Oak, is a good way to make a flat surface.
STRENGTH:
Consider this. which is stronger, a 1 foot piece of a 2inch diamter tree branch, or, a 2" by 2" batoned peice of wood from farther inside a tree?
Wood was joined with hardwood pegs that had been split from heartwood.
OK, so I have a hatchet or small axe , that is what I will be doing a majority of the splitting with. Good to go. The downside is that Axes are bulkier and heavier. With limited ability to carry things in the wilderness, I'd go with a good stout knife and cross cutting blade. I could fashion my own buck saw like the early carpenters, and still split (baton) logs for other uses, such as for tent pegs and tool making.
How do you split a 2 foot diamter log with a small knife?? You baton (split) small wedges of wood, then those small wedges are driven into natural cracks in the log, it may take 10 of them, beaten in with a stout peice of wood, but, it can be done.
The very Axe handle itself is fashioned from split wood. As is a hammer handle or any other wooden handle. If your axe handle broke in the wilderness, you could "baton" a new one, out of some nice strong hardwood, like ash.
Splitting (Batoning) is one of the basic components of woodworking.
Most of us, these days, think of a standard handsaw as primitive, but the Crosscut and Ripsaws made from spring steel are fairly modern, and were light years ahead of the primitive carpenter who even fashioned his own tools from the very wood he worked, as he travelled from town to town being contracted to perform his craft. He built anything from basic furniture, as commoners could not afford anything else up to and including entire houses, which took years to construct, along with the help of an apprentice.
"Batoning" is just a fancier, more specific word for "splitting" using a straight blade, like a knife.
Whether it be with an axe, maul, froe or a stout knife, I'll always call it "splittin" wood.
Thanks kel, I wasn't trying to set anyone straight, not in a negative way, just pass along some things I had learned a long time ago.
After all that primitive talk, I must confess, I actually use a gas powered log splitter to split all my firewood. (yes, I am a wimp).
After all that primitive talk, I must confess, I actually use a gas powered log splitter to split all my firewood. (yes, I am a wimp).
Cliff Stamp
BANNED
- Joined
- Oct 5, 1998
- Messages
- 17,562
SkunkWerX said:
Batoning just means to hit the spine with something hard because the knife can't chop/cut through the material directly. Thus you can baton a knife through heavy wire for example. In wood craft it is mainly used both to split and fell wood with blades. You also of course baton on many other wood working tools like chisels. I sometimes do similar with knives to use the tip as a chisel. Generally larger blades only need it for splitting.
Yes, most wood is best split to start as it not only saves you a lot of time reducing the stock you need to remove, it also gives you multiple pieces of wood to use.
SkunkWerX said:
Indeed. There is so much misinformation and at times outright hostility and bais towards the use of stouter blades that it becomes a parody you can't even take seriously. Most of it, like all such information, is just based on promotion for sales. When people sell a product which lacks a feature they often attack feature that as unnecessary/useless. In this case it is horribly absurd and one generation ago it would have been transparent.
-Cliff
RokJok
Gold Member
- Joined
- Oct 6, 2000
- Messages
- 4,311
SkunkWerX, thanks for the post explaining your terminology from the woodworking perspective.
Splitting of wood along the grain is also known as "riving" the wood. See the link below for a write-up on the technique from John Alexander, whom many consider to be the current dean of American green wood chairmaking, as well as the pictures on the homepage of him riving and shaving chair parts.
http://www.greenwoodworking.com/riving/riving.htm
Splitting of wood along the grain is also known as "riving" the wood. See the link below for a write-up on the technique from John Alexander, whom many consider to be the current dean of American green wood chairmaking, as well as the pictures on the homepage of him riving and shaving chair parts.
http://www.greenwoodworking.com/riving/riving.htm
RokJok said:
Thanks Rokjok for the kind word.
Riving is splitting absolutely Green wood. If you find the right wood species, you can almost PUSH cut through it, once you find the right grain. It's like a cross between planing and splitting, when it's done right, with the right kind of wood.
In colonial times working green wood was a big time saver.
Take a wood like locust. (The great american fence post) It can be worked relatively easy when freshly cut, but wait 6 months, or even a year and it's hard as a rock. They would fashion the green locust into fence posts, then dry them for a year or so, before planting them in the ground. the green wood in the ground would rot, the dried wood held up for generations.
I gave up on green wood from a woodworking perspective, too many variables for each species. The shrinkage alone will make you crazy.
Cut it, let it dry for year, then rasie a toast to the 16" BandSaw with a resaw blade, woohoo.
As Cliff pointed out, Batoning is the act of hitting, as with a baton.
I didn't get into that as specifically as I should have.
Baton is a French originated word. A baton is a straight cylinder, in this case a large wooden dowel would be the best representation of a baton. It's a "headless" hammer. But, that little piece of wood an orchestra conducter uses is also a baton, go figure.
I use wooden mallets with my chisels, not batons.
Go back to the mideaval carpenter for a moment. Carrying only his 3 or 4 metal tools, his first baton/hammer would be a tree branch. With these he would fabricate the correct wooden pieces to assemble his frame saw, since all he was carrying was the blade, itself. Once his frame saw was built, he could then cut much larger pieces of wood, logs.
Then he would take his blade and his tree branch and one of the first things he would do is get into the center section of a log, and baton out a very strong "baton", handle, since, continued use of the tree branch would end in a cracked branch. Once he had split out a nice piece of hardwood, he would then fashion it cylindrically, because that is more comfortable to hold, and he would try to make sure the end opposite his grip was left larger and heavier for striking. So it would be a tapered cylinder of hard wood.
From a piece such as this, the next step would be a full fledged mallet, strong baton (handle) then a nice fat head affixed by way of a mortise and tenon joint.
One tool built on the next, and so on.
This is why I suggest that splitting (batoning, riving, etc) is one of the first basic building blocks of wood working. In a more primitive sense, it's simply a conveient way to "dimension" a piece of wood into a tool of some sort.
Whether it be a tent stake, or Cliff's wooden digging tool. (Cudos, perfect example of how wooden tools would be fashioned).
Perhaps it's more correct to say that Batoning is the "controlled" splitting of wood by impacting a straight blade with a wooden cylinder (versus and Axe or maul, that is less controlled.)
I'm still going to call it "splittin" wood , whether I'm using a maul, hatchet, chisel, or my BK1.
Cliff Stamp
BANNED
- Joined
- Oct 5, 1998
- Messages
- 17,562
SkunkWerX said:
In a an outdoor survival sense baton defines the action, so you can baton with a rock for example or even the sole of your boot. Often the first "baton" is something very crude as you noted which just lets you cut a decent piece of wood for a decent baton, which lets you make wedges, which lets you make everything else.
It is not an ideal defination, a better one would be assisted splitting because that is more general. A lot of the times when people mention batoning to split people they are are immediately confronted with condesending remarks of "Use an axe dummy!" because unfortunately most wood craft has been lost so often only the crude basics remain and they are often distorted through lack of experience.
Many types of splitting are not done with an axe because it is too imprecise a tool. You don't split heavy roots with an axe for example, you cut them and pull them apart.
For thin splits a blade can be used to start the cut and then a combination of prying and twisting with the blade and pulling the wood apart by hand will produce very thin slats. Mears demonstrates this when he is building the birch bark canoe, you don't make small slats a fraction of an inch thick with a splitting maul.
Locally Alders are split very well by such tension based methods. Trying to split them with an axe isn't productive. You certaintly can't try to vertically chop split them, the wood would just bend under the impact as it often grows twisted and bent. A long knife also has many other uses because you can lay the long blade down on a shingle and use it to directly cut off a thin strip by cutting through the grains. Not ideal for strength, but you don't always need maximum strength. Of course the blade has lot of other applications as well. It readily shears down lighter vegetation, prepares foods, etc. .
Speaking of chisels, have you used the high carbon, very hard Japanese ones?
-Cliff
baton the noun? baton the verb? Oh well, I think everyone is on the same page or fell asleep during my last reply. 
No, I don't have, nor have used any of the Japanese (Rockwell 64?? wow) chisels, I'll bet they can do some nice end grain cutting with the right grinding angle.
I am seeing them being hawked in all the woodworking catalogs, they seem to be the "hot lick" in the hand chisel world.
I'm still not happy with japanese for driving up the cost of our North Amercian lumber. They know their woods very well and they buy up all the good old growth stuff while it's still standing, dang them.
No, I don't have, nor have used any of the Japanese (Rockwell 64?? wow) chisels, I'll bet they can do some nice end grain cutting with the right grinding angle.
I am seeing them being hawked in all the woodworking catalogs, they seem to be the "hot lick" in the hand chisel world.
I'm still not happy with japanese for driving up the cost of our North Amercian lumber. They know their woods very well and they buy up all the good old growth stuff while it's still standing, dang them.
Ebbtide
Gold Member
- Joined
- Aug 20, 1999
- Messages
- 8,009
Geeze, this is not complicated.
Baton is not a method it is a thing.
Baton. French word for bat?
A police officer would carry a baton.
A majorette twirls a baton.
It's a form of bat.
Batonning is to hit the knife with a baton or form of bat.
The action is splitting the wood if done with the grain and cutting it if done across the grain.
Only here would something so simple become so complicated.
Baton is not a method it is a thing.
Baton. French word for bat?
A police officer would carry a baton.
A majorette twirls a baton.
It's a form of bat.
Batonning is to hit the knife with a baton or form of bat.
The action is splitting the wood if done with the grain and cutting it if done across the grain.
Only here would something so simple become so complicated.
Cliff Stamp
BANNED
- Joined
- Oct 5, 1998
- Messages
- 17,562
SkunkWerX said:
Yes, pretty much like hammer, a noun but also a general action. It would be better if it was just called hammering as it would be more obvious, but that just doesn't sound as sophisticated as "batoning".
A lot of the general wood working tools are seeing use of such steels. I like the general concept of the harder steels, but the japanese have a reputation for brittle behavior at the high hardness. Lee describes that you need to hone at at higher angle to prevent chipping in the chisels so you lose cutting ability to gain edge retention.
I like the japanese saws though, the western ones are now adapting similar tooth patterns and variants. Often though working in the reverse, cutting heavy on the push as that is how most western saws are used. There are also nice looking japanese axes and such on Garret Wade but the shipping is just killer to Canada.
-Cliff
Cliff Stamp
BANNED
- Joined
- Oct 5, 1998
- Messages
- 17,562
SkunkWerX said:
It is english, there is no way it can just be one thing, it would be far too easy to understand. I have never heard a carpenter refer to it as batoning, or even as anything, it is just called the action, cutting or splitting. Just like using a chisel is chiseling, either if you do it by hand or by impacting the end of the handle. It mainly came from survival/wood craft people, origionally promoted as some kind of extreme task.
I'd be interested in your perspective/methods for splitting problematic woods, especially any comments relative to certain types of wood. A lot of people believe it is just a brute force process, slam the axe/blade into the wood with maximum force. Hence for example people driving a large splitting axe dead center into a round with knots opposing it perpendicular to the handle. That isn't going anywhere even if you maul it with wedges.
What is the easiest local wood you have to split and what is the worst? What splits nice and clean and what tends to be twisted and knotty. The best I have seen is apps, which is even easier to split than clear white pine which I didn't even think was possible. You can even chop split decent size pieces with a knife, meaning several inches. Dense and wet, not nice to burn. I have not done any wood working with it, I just cleaved up a few truckloads last year for a friend. It looked really nice and clean, straight grain. Was soft though so likely not much strength.
My grandfather was a master finish carpenter, I did not actually become interested in wood working until long after he died, much to my loss. My family is full of carpenters, construction is a family business, however not a lot of finish work though and in reflection it is much too bad all the knowledge was lost.
-Cliff
Cliff Stamp said:
Ok, we will probably have to take this a little bit at a time, it could become a novel.
On my property, I have the following as the dominant species:
Mulberry, (Cherry, wild cherry or choke cherry) , Locust, Poplar, Maple/Box Elder, a Pine or two, An Oak or two.
Rather than try to do a ranking, I'll just go through what I find when dealing with each of them.
Pine-these are less than 2 foot diameter, not a lot of heartwood, we consider it trash for the most part. Sappy, burns poorly, it would split easily by hand with an Axe or Maul, it would plane or chisel just fine, except for knots, of course.
Poplar- Our other softwood. light, airy, splits easily. This wood is good for internal components of cabinets or furniture. You could do shallow mortising of poplar almost by hand, with a sharp chisel and hand pressure. (no beating on the chisel, maybe some taps with a small wooden mallet).
Mulberry/Choke Cherry- This closelty approximates cherry, not quite as nice, but, fine for basic woodworking. Where it's major branches form it can be a bugger to split, nothing like a 24 ton log splitter, it slices as much or more when going through this kind of joint. I keep my Splitter wedge nicely sharpened, so it actually will sheer it's way through twisted grain.
Again, with a sharp chisel, and a straight section, it can be worked with some medium/light tapping, if you were hogging out a 2" x 2" mortise, you may be grabbing for a larger mallet or even a hammer, and giving it some good solid hits.
Locust- straight pieces split nicely , it's fairly straight grained, but not so much as a nice White or Red Oak. If it's fresh and green, then it's time to split it. Once it is seasoned it gets very hard. Seasoned Locust will actually throw sparks off of your chainsaw blade. I'd call it hard and brittle. A very strong wood when it's seasoned, but then becomes very difficult to work, and will dull saw blades more rapidly than something like Oak. Locust is more like a weed, grows fairly rapidly, and was typically used for pasture fence posts due to it's resistance to rot. Locust is not a wood you would look forward to for fine woodworking. If you were inclined to , it could be planed, chiseling, unless at a very low angle, would require a good deal of actual beating and pounding.
Maple/Box Elder- a light colored hardwood, where it branches it must be sheered/cut in order to split. Straight pieces may not split in a nice linear fashion, the splitting wedge or maul will follow the grain, and may turn a quarter of a turn, in a 2 foot length...like a corkscrew twist. not as hard as oak, so it can be worked by hand fairly easily.
Oak- well what can I say , it's the universal wood. Strong, straight grained, can be used structurally, all the way to finish and furniture work.
Oak is probably the most predictable wood I deal with personally. When Oak does take a twist or turn, you can see it in the grain, and avoid that area, or use that area to it's best benefit for joinery or as and end piece.
Our White Pine is pretty crappy, not old growth, and forget finish work, if you try to sand it you end up polishing the sap smooth, more than removing actual wood material
Right now , I have a cord or two of oak for firewood, also some Locust, so, for small work, I simply grab a peice of heartwood, shove it through the bandsaw, to bring it to rough dimension, then, start fashioning it into whatever it is I need.
Cliff Stamp
BANNED
- Joined
- Oct 5, 1998
- Messages
- 17,562
Thanks for the info, there is some oak locally, but rare, mainly it is bought and private planted. A friend cut down a few very large trees while I was out of town awhile back, really nice wood, it was all thrown in the dump. We have choke cherry on other parts of the island. I have not seen any immediately local.
Less than two foot diameter is kind of funny. I live in a small outport community so all the houses are personally built from cut wood. It is very rare to see pine over a foot in diameter, I cut down some sawing sticks last year and the largest were in the 14-18" range.
Do you do much of your shaping with hand tools? Carpenters axe, drawknife, etc. .
-Cliff
Less than two foot diameter is kind of funny. I live in a small outport community so all the houses are personally built from cut wood. It is very rare to see pine over a foot in diameter, I cut down some sawing sticks last year and the largest were in the 14-18" range.
Do you do much of your shaping with hand tools? Carpenters axe, drawknife, etc. .
-Cliff
I don't do much if any shaping with hand tools. I have a couple of draw knives, but, in modern times with power tools, I'd only use a drawknife for hollowing a solid wood chair seat , or something very specific like that.
If the bandsaw is too large, I'll use a portable jigsaw. Once in a while, in a tight spot, I might find myself grabbing for a coping saw.
Besides that, it's power tools pretty much 99% of the time.
Maybe when I retire I'll have time to build some things, from scratch, by hand.
If the bandsaw is too large, I'll use a portable jigsaw. Once in a while, in a tight spot, I might find myself grabbing for a coping saw.
Besides that, it's power tools pretty much 99% of the time.
Maybe when I retire I'll have time to build some things, from scratch, by hand.
Cliff Stamp
BANNED
- Joined
- Oct 5, 1998
- Messages
- 17,562
I can understand that. I cut most winter wood by hand, but clearing lots as a profession there are not a lot of axemen left for obvious reasons.
-Cliff
-Cliff
I just recently learned of batoning from http://outdoors-magazine.com/s_summary.php It seems to be useful in it's own way. I'm happy to have another skill I can use and practice.