Batoning versus not batoning

koyote

koyote

Joined
Mar 29, 2007
Messages
5,846
The endless and most heated debate continues. But I'd like to leave axes and saws out of it, for the moment.

Batoning- hitting a knife with a stick to chisel it through stuff. The ultimate evil, the ultimate in practicality?

When I first started making, it was assumed (by me, based on the culture) that batoning was somethign you just made sure an outdoors knife could handle. So that's the way I do it. Thing is, I learned to really like it. My son, too. He can split a log he can't touch with an axe because he hasn't got the strength yet.

For splitting small wood, it's great. How small? depends on blade length, mostly.

For splitting bone, it seems to work better than a hatchet (I've frankly killed hatchet blades on cow legs)

For precision splitting or chisel nothing, way better than anything short of a chisel.


What I really want is pictures and grind info. What grinds do you think work best? What capacity do you think batoning has?
 
koyote said:
The endless and most heated debate continues.
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Why is the topic both endless and heated? It shouldn't be. Well in any case I like to baton if smaller wood needs to be split and there is no axe. Other times if inside my shelter or under a tarp and there isn't room to work other tools. There are no favorite grinds. No preferred steels...etc..etc because in the woods you use whatever is at hand.

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Batoning is a good trick to know, sort of like starting a fire with a spindle and a bow, but I prefer hatchets and bic lighters over long discussions. ;)
 
Although I don't use the practice often, I have found that the grind like on a BK-2 works well. A similar FFG 1/4" thick blade works, but the saber grind splits like a wedge. At least in my experiences, and with smaller and shorter pieces of wood. The FFG requires a few more taps with the baton, were the saber grind has 1/4" thickness further into the wood.
 
foxx said:
Although I don't use the practice often, I have found that the grind like on a BK-2 works well. A similar FFG 1/4" thick blade works, but the saber grind splits like a wedge. At least in my experiences, and with smaller and shorter pieces of wood. The FFG requires a few more taps with the baton, were the saber grind has 1/4" thickness further into the wood.
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I'm the opposite but I recognize the logic in the above post. I find a thicker blade more difficult to split wood with because you have to ramp up the force of the baton initially in order to sink the knife past its bevel. I acknowledge that the thickness does act as a better wedge and this means you don't have to baton as far into the wood before you achieve a split. If the wood were dry enough that it splits before you drove your knife past its spine then I would say this would be a perfect situation. On a thicker knife, I prefer a convex edge over a V because I believe it is easier to sink the knife into the wood while with a V-grind you are fighting with the knife as soon as you get it to the secondary bevel. then again, an overly aggressive convex will lead to chipping at the edge and I know a few tales of Barky golok's developing dime sized chips because of how aggressively metal has been removed.

On the whole, I tend to prefer blades that are between 1/8" and 3/16" thickness for baton splitting. I find them easier to baton with requiring less force with the compromise that you have to hit the knife further into the wood before achieving the split. In the end though, this is why I rationalize that the thickness of the knife doesn't afford that much protection against breakage when baton splitting simply because I have to whack the knife harder and harder with the baton the thicker the knife is. So strength due to thickness gives way forced needed to be applied.

The best features in a knife bought with a great deal of batoning in mind are having a full tang, blade length and blade height. Full tang provides better abuse withstanding capability and the scales are less likely to break if you accidentally hit them while a fully enveloped handle is more prone to cracking if you hit it. Blade length should be obvious. The more tip you have sticking out of your log, the easier it is to hit it. Blade height lets you sink the knife further into the wood before you have to start hitting the knife. Sometimes you get lucky and it just splits before you've sunk the knife all the way. A larger blade height also provides greater rigidity to a blade that is of thinner stock.

Of course nobody buys a knife for the sole purpose of batoning, so the above attributes need to be balanced against other aspects to facilitate the chores you most commonly perform with your knife. Thus, I still prefer carrying a bushcrafter knife to a 9-10" blade. However, I do find that bushy-type knives less then 4" tend to be lacking in this area. I'd much rather carry a 4.25" - 5" blade simply because this added little bit of length makes baton splitting easier on a greater diversity of wood sizes most commonly processes to serve my needs for a personal fire.
 
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IMO, there is no better grind for splitting wood with a knife then the convex grind. It pushes outward as it is plowed down through the wood. Flat grinds wedge/stick easily. Hollow grinds, scandis same thing. That's why an axe has a convex grind. The edge doesn't matter much until you run into knots. Then the edge is put to the test.
Scott
 
I agree with Scott. Any grind will work, but a convex grind seems to work better than a flat or hollow grind. Scandi grinds do well but are a second place entry as compared to a conxex. I also think that a slightly thicker blade wedges better than a thin blade. I once saw someone split wood planks off a log with wooden pegs and wedges. So we may be talking about some fine differences here.
 
Okay, just to add some visual spice, here's someone either abusing one of my knives or abusing a cow leg. (I'd say the leg bone was being abused)

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[imghttp://rotte.smugmug.com/Form-stuff/Koyotes/i-2RttZGZ/0/L/P8070176-L.jpg[/img]


I definitely prefer a convex for batopning, and thinner blades in general.


Woodswalker:

yeah, preferred steels and grinds- because batoning isn't just an emergency "oops I forgot to get dressed" thing to do. I use a striker- flint/steel sparkmaker for my torches, but a bic for my grill. Not really determining that one is better in any absolute sense.

The axe thing is one reason I do baton- I don't like carrying a bunch of extra stuff.
 
I have had this debate with many of my fellow campers at numerous times. They keep telling me it's a giant knife & I keep saying it is a tool. Funny how some think a knife is a weapon but an axe is a tool--yet you could be killed easily with either & i don't know anyone who cuts up thier dinner on a regular basis with an axe, yet you can easily do both with a large knife. I feel that batoning is much safer than swinging an axe. Unless you use an axe everyday & are VERY accurate with it & your wood is always perfectly square on each end & you have the perfect surface to set it on. It happens every year in the State Parks around here. Someone will miss & hit thier leg/foot/shin with the blade or the head of the axe/hatchet & require medical assistance. By placing the blade exactly where you want it & then hitting it into the wood may not be as fast, but just seems so much safer. If in a very remote area/situation, the same injury could have grave consequences. I'm just sayin'.
 
I never tried to understand the dynamics behind it but my Saber ground Chopweiler has always been my best knife for battoning, the wood just splits easier with this beast~

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By pitdog2010 at 2010-09-30

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By pitdog2010 at 2010-09-30

The fact that I can really pound on it with zero fear of breakage doesn't hurt either !

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By pitdog2010 at 2011-03-04
 
My BK9 seems to do the job just fine...

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Ok ok - but I do like that picture. Anyway - works like a charm and I don't have to carry a heavy axe with me...

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---
Beckerhead #42
 
I'll baton over using a hatchet or small axe any time. I find that it's safer and easier to do. If you're using the hatchet to split and you happen to miss or hit a glancing blow, then you have a sharp edge swinging toward your legs/body. If you're using a knife and baton, the sharp edge is against the wood. If you miss to have a glancing hit with the baton, you may wack yourself with a small club.

If I was using a hatchet, I would use it with a baton too, more than likely. If I'm going to do that, why carry the hatchet?

I've got a BSA hatchet that has a convex edge that will cut free hanging paper. My JAB Potbelly will chop circles around it and it's only a 7" blade. It's not even fair to compare them. My Kabar Cutlass with it's 11" blade is a chainsaw compared to the hatchet. Until you get into work where you need a full size axe, I'll take a big knife any day of the week.
 
TwinStick said:
I have had this debate with many of my fellow campers at numerous times. They keep telling me it's a giant knife & I keep saying it is a tool. Funny how some think a knife is a weapon but an axe is a tool--yet you could be killed easily with either & i don't know anyone who cuts up thier dinner on a regular basis with an axe, yet you can easily do both with a large knife. I feel that batoning is much safer than swinging an axe. Unless you use an axe everyday & are VERY accurate with it & your wood is always perfectly square on each end & you have the perfect surface to set it on. It happens every year in the State Parks around here. Someone will miss & hit thier leg/foot/shin with the blade or the head of the axe/hatchet & require medical assistance. By placing the blade exactly where you want it & then hitting it into the wood may not be as fast, but just seems so much safer. If in a very remote area/situation, the same injury could have grave consequences. I'm just sayin'.
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dogstar said:
This is not necessary for splitting wood with an axe. Please refer to the videos I posted on page 3 of this thread:
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/871656-Batonning-v.-Axing
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I would say you're right in that it takes less skill to baton then use an axe properly but not by much and proper axe use isn't really all that hard to learn. I would also say all of those injuries are probably due to people not knowing how to use an axe or not knowing how to care for(yes an axe should be sharp) an axe properly. Your post shows how pervasive the ignorance of axe use is. You don't need perfectly square rounds to split wood and in fact splitting from the side is safer IMO.
 
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cramsey3006 said:
I've got a BSA hatchet that has a convex edge that will cut free hanging paper. My JAB Potbelly will chop circles around it and it's only a 7" blade. It's not even fair to compare them.
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By out chop you mean your knife with a baton chops better then your hatchet or just straight up chopping?
 
koyote said:
The endless and most heated debate continues. But I'd like to leave axes and saws out of it, for the moment.
.......
What I really want is pictures and grind info. What grinds do you think work best? What capacity do you think batoning has?
Click to expand...

Hey folks, maybe we can give Christof a bit of respect here. He was doing his best NOT to compare an axe vs a knife but to have a thread on batoning with knives.

Peace!
 
kgd said:
Hey folks, maybe we can give Christof a bit of respect here. He was doing his best NOT to compare an axe vs a knife but to have a thread on batoning with knives.

Peace!
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A good thread is like a good battle plan. It never survives first contact. LOL

Seriously though I would give the edge to convexed just because it cuts down on wedging but I would say that it really doesn't matter. If the knife is made to withstand the force both overall and at the edge, then it's a matter of preference like is demonstrated above AND in every other thread we have. :D

Though for the life of my I can't see how cramsey3006 is outchopping a hatchet with a 7 inch knife. Not saying he can't, just that I'm skeptical. :)
 
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