Batoning with a knife

On a truly sharp knife, 15 per side or less, one that will endure thousands of chops with hardly any detectable micro-folding of the edge, batoning will instantly and severely micro-fold the edge, continuously throughout the edge, just by splitting lengthwise a 2" diameter twig once...

The loads on the apex are inherently less symmetrical with batoning than with chopping I've found: Batoning is best left to thick splitting edges with no real slicing ability...

Rather than split wood that is too big for your fire, and will likely be on the ground where it's wet, chop off branches that are thinner to begin with, and up where the air dries them faster after a downpour...

Yes a big chunk will last longer in a fire, but you can still chop those in segments and get them going with a strong fire made of thinner branches.

Gaston
 
Gaston444 said:
On a truly sharp knife, 15 per side or less, one that will endure thousands of chops with hardly any detectable micro-folding of the edge, batoning will instantly and severely micro-fold the edge, continuously throughout the edge, just by splitting lengthwise a 2" diameter twig once...
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No, it won't.
Don't you ever get tired of being wrong all the time?
 
For small kindling batoning is much easier and safer, but I baton on my hatchet with a piece of wood ( doesn't take much force ) or chop holding the wood against the bit of my hatchet. This is mostly because I love my hatchets and don't have any real thick fixed blades though, I'd have no problem batoning on one for small kindling if I had a thick one.
I don't think you could really damage any 1/4" thick knife batoning small kindling unless it has a super thin skinning type grind, but I thought this discussion was about the big stuff you normally see people baton through on YouTube.
 
Gaston444 said:
On a truly sharp knife, 15 per side or less, one that will endure thousands of chops with hardly any detectable micro-folding of the edge, batoning will instantly and severely micro-fold the edge, continuously throughout the edge, just by splitting lengthwise a 2" diameter twig once...

Gaston
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Ok i didnt expect i can get this much comments. Thank you everyone who commented.
I have to answer 2 major things that people pointed out.
First, i know... I know... Using the right tool for the right job is a common sense. I would use an axe for splitting wood. I would keep the knife in a horizontal angle when batoning and baton wood without logs IF i really have to baton my dear knives.
I love knives and i would try my vert best to avoid breaking them when i use them in any situation. Meanwhile, i would aslo want my knives to be strong and capable, so i would watch tons of abusive videos of a knife before buying it. (Because i tend to love heavy use knives). Batoning the knives like a caveman is for TESTING the capability of knivese but not really for real use. If i have an axe, plenty of time and plenty of wood in any size. I would definitely use the axe for wood splitting or make a wedge for wood splitting.
Again, i want my knives to be capable so i like those youtube videos which TEST the knives by batoning for me and others.

Also, i tend to think one knive survival is a practice and i always think about apocalypse. So if i can handle tasks by only useing one knife during practice in camping, my chances of surviving an apocalypse would increase.
 
I like most of what you say; I just have a problem with the term "apocalypse". :rolleyes: I've been around a long time (praise God) and seen a lot. :( I've also read and imagined a lot and CANNOT imagine a real circumstance of apocalyptic proportions (other than biblical, which may not be discussed here) which can actually occur which would be survivable for any length of time in a non large group brutal, savage. way. :eek: As such, I do not think a given knife or tool will matter. Just my .02.
 
I have a couple of Condor Hudson Bays that I beat like red headed step children. They cost next to nothing. I will be long dead before I break enough knives to put a dent in my pile. Just bring a back up for your back up, some have even been known to grab a hatchet. Most times I just run what I brung.
 
katanas said:
As such, I do not think a given knife or tool will matter.
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Still, give yourself a fighting chance. My bug-out bag contains a smatchet, Survive! Knives GSO-7 factory second, Opinel No. 8, Leatherman Squirt and a SAK.

Of course, if it's a formal apocalypse and I have to wear a suit, I just carry the SAK.
 
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bt93 said:
I've seen wooden axe handles break. Chipped edges on axe heads are easily filed down .
I'd love to see how someone would break an Eastwing camp axe, all metal one piece hatchet.
AO_campers_axe.jpg
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Worst splitters ever.

Decent limbers and good for grubbing out roots. But man, they suck at splitting due to the thin grind.
 
Buy yourself a decent hatchet for chopping/batonning tasks. There are plenty of great choices.

Or if you are committed to using a fixed blade then just exercise some common sense: have a knife sturdy enough to handle it and use a correct technique. Like others have said, if the steel, geometry and construction of the knife are good you'll be fine.
 
Just use your head when batonning and you should be fine. I am assuming you have a decent knife to begin with...whatever "decent" means. Some folks carry a $300 fixed blade; some prefer a $10 fixed blade for the woods. Both will work. A good hatchet is better...and made for the job.
Read the above posts.
You can even baton with a "folding" knife, but UNLOCK it first so you are just delivering the force to the blade spine and NOT to the locking mechanism.
Yeah, I'm a physicist, but you don't need a physicist to answer your question. Most steels are okay whether stainless or tool steel. The blade's hardness will generally be "soft" enough (tough enough) so that you can baton in a reasonable fashion. Again,...read the above posts...it's all there for you. And, as has been said...a good hatchet will do your work more easily.
Experience generally is a much better teacher than books.
 
I went with my brother in law to Tellico river in the Cherokee Nat Forest a few years back for a weekend of catching a bunch of pellet heads(hatchery reared trout)destined for his smoker.We were in a huge motor home and he left the firewood he was supposed to bring.I went on a mission to collect driftwood on the river and found where a huge pine had fallen across the road and the forest service had chainsawed it up and there were several limbs about ten feet long that were about 10" in diameter at the fat end tapering to about 4" laying on the side of the road.I drug them back to the portable mcmansion and told him here's our fire wood.Not having the chainsaw that was beside the wood he had forgotten back home I used a Mora 521 I had bought for 9 dollars from Ragweed forge to whack the limbs into lengths of firewood using the railroad tie the forest service used for a curb in the parking lot for a base.After I was thru the BIL ( who like Clara's comatose husband in the mini series Lonesome Dove is both so dumb he can hardly walk thru a door without bumping his head and wealthy)shook his head and said I had ruined that knife.He was amazed when I showed him the undamaged edge and shaved arm hair with it.No rolled edges like a previous posts author said was inevitable and this from a 3 15//6's inch blade used to whack crossgrain thru limbs way thicker than its length.I mainly baton the wrist sized or thinner driftwood that is found along every brook trout creek I fish in the Smoky Mountains Nat. Park since I never take an axe or was because they are too heavy and because I find it easier to use a knife than either my council tool or husqvarna hatchets to do this.The first example was borne out of a desire to sit by a fire for my entertainment at night rather than watch the satellite tv in the air conditioned innards of the land yacht and using the only tool at hand to make it happen while the second is something I do regularly.To each his own,I am not an advocate on a crusade to convince anyone to baton.
 
SpySmasher, you're talking to a guy with 100 firearms, 90 swords, and over 425 knives; add numerous battle axes (not counting my mother in law), war hammers, spears, at least 4 bug out bags, etc. and I think I've given myself a chance. ;) My suit (in which I carry a mcusta kamon) is an yves st Laurent. :D
 
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GrReaper said:
Metal fatigue is a real phenomenon. Same principal applies to old airplanes, the wings and fuselage. After decades of takeoffs and landings, you never know when it will suddenly have a catastrophic failure. As far as batonning, I don't think it's as bad as some think. Hard chopping puts way more stress on a knife than using a baton carefully with good technique. And if you are way out there, it's always a good idea to have a backup knife.
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Metal does fatique. But I don't know how or why it fatigues on something like a knife (use only or just sitting on the dresser?). If beyond a mile or so from the road, I'll usually have a second knife with me regardless. That's just the way I'm built.

I have beat the hell out of Estwing rock hammer and a hatchet and neither has never failed. The rock hammer got far more stressful use since I often was pounding on it with a small sledge (with eye protection of course). ;)

Added: I know that stress causes metal fatique and batoning is stressful to a knife steel. I just can't really measure it beyond looking for micro fractures.... versus "not knowing". One of my less thought out posts...
 
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GrReaper said:
Metal fatigue is a real phenomenon. Same principal applies to old airplanes, the wings and fuselage. After decades of takeoffs and landings, you never know when it will suddenly have a catastrophic failure. As far as batonning, I don't think it's as bad as some think. Hard chopping puts way more stress on a knife than using a baton carefully with good technique. And if you are way out there, it's always a good idea to have a backup knife.
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Airplanes used to be made out of this stuff they dug out of the ground called aluminum. When you make your thing out of aluminum you get to design it in a way that factors what kind of load it will face; let's say 100 pounds. So as you cycle that thing with the 100 pound load it will fatigue and after 100 000s of cycles it will fail. Now what happens if you just put 10 pounds of load on instead of the 100? You get many more cycles out of the thing but it still fails. Even if you just put 1 pound on it will eventually fail. That is the nature of aluminum.

And there is a very good idea of when said thing will fail. When things fall out of the sky the incident is studied and the cause is humans bending the rules and ignoring the facts around what said thing is rated to do.

Now we move to steel and we again make our thing to face 100 pounds of load. When we cycle it what happens? It lasts forever. As long as you keep the number in the range it was designed to support it lasts forever. If you load it with 150 pounds it will break so you have to be cognizant of the real world limit of your thing.

Now why don't we have steel airplanes that last forever? Well steel is too heavy. We do have titanium airplanes that last forever but they're too expensive for most folks taste. Once again with titanium if you keep the load within the range is was designed for it will cycle forever.
 
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