Battle Rat block chop,could most knives do it and survive?

this is a quote from the swamp rat forums....BS???

ric Isaacson
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King Rat
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Icon 1 posted July 27, 2002 07:53 PM Profile for Eric Isaacson Send New Private Message Edit/Delete Post Reply With Quote Just another note, this was a REAL CONCRETE block. NOT a Cinder block(which I don't believe are even made any longer) and it was NOT a synthetic block(which someone on another forum claims). It was a real concrete block, the block was new, it didn't float in water, it was a heavy block, I know I had to carry it. [Big Grin] [Big Grin]

Plenty of people saw the block at Blade. I just want to make sure everyone is clear, this was a CONCRETE BLOCK [Big Grin] [Big Grin]

Any Questions? [Big Grin] Posts: 1817 | From: Kentucky | Registered: Jun 2002


:D
 
Rat Finkenstein said:
This is an ancient thread.
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Searches often pop up old threads.

Charlie4727 said:
....BS???
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It was done live, unless you want to argue they have David Blane working for them, it is pretty straightforward.

The only real reason that this gets the impact that it does is the abundance of brittle high carbon stainless blades.

-Cliff
 
"the edges are not thick" as opposed to what.

These knives are axes fashioned to look like knives. They have the thickest edges I've ever seen - I have no doubt they would chop through a concrete block.

Those new to knives seem to be the ones most interested in knives like these with overly thick edges - I was one of them long ago.

See this thread for an idea of a more correct knife geometry and buy a real axe if your going to do big chopping.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=350427
 
averageguy said:
"the edges are not thick" as opposed to what.
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TOP's, Strider, SOG, Benchmade, many other custom and production tactical knives, which not only run edges of similar or greater thickness but use higher edge angles and lower primary grinds.

[edge thickness]

I have no doubt they would chop through a concrete block.
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Kind of odd to when they have done it live.

Note edge thickness wasn't the critical geometrical factor there it was the edge angle.

The edge thickness could have been cut vastly down with no effect as the very edge itself took no damage.

The fact that the edge took no visible damage shows the high impaction resistance as well as toughness and ductility.

It is more than just a break / not break test, the extent of the damage is revealing as was the nature of the impacts which were heavy.

Concrete block chops are not very demanding of edge thickness anyway as since they explode they induce no lateral strain.

-Cliff
 
I have not seen a SOG or Benchmade with edges as thick as these. I have seen a few other knives - most intended to retail at under $150.00 - with edges like this. Can't comment on Strider - I never bought one because I knew these had overly fat edges.
While there may be a few - very few knives with edges this thick - I have never seen an edge thicker than these.



I'll say it again.

These knives are axes fashioned to look like knives. They have the thickest edges I've ever seen - I have no doubt they would chop through a concrete block.

Those new to knives seem to be the ones most interested in knives like these with overly thick edges - I was one of them long ago.

See this thread for an idea of a more correct knife geometry and buy a real axe if your going to do big chopping.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=350427

Busse (Swamp Rat) can safely continue to claim to make the toughest knives.
So tough in fact that they don't meet the NC Guild definition of a knife (below) because at best they are axes fashioned to look like knives.

knife (nif) a cutting instrument consisting essentially of a thin sharp-edged blade set in a handle.

I suggest, given all the work you do with knives that you take the time to examine some real ones - start with the link above.

I just formed a funny mental image of you walking into a guild show waving around a Busse and telling everyone you have the only real knife in there.
 
Your link leads to:

Unfortunately, the page you are trying to get to has either moved or no longer exists.
 
AG

PLEASE go take whatever medications that you've been skipping, because you've become more than a little shrill and boring with the constant rant about Busse's and Swamp Rats and their BIG FAT FREAKING EDGES!!!

OK, ok, just for the record and to make you happy. BUSSE MAKES THE MOST BEAUTIFUL AXE'S SHAPED LIKE A KNIFE IN THE WORLD!!!!! Happy now?

Jeez, enough of this happy horsesh!t.

Rob
 
I edited to correct link. Just in case the link becomes mysteriously corrupted again see this post by Wheeler - Joss's pack knife in progress - in the custom knife forum.

"PLEASE go take whatever medications that you've been skipping, because you've become more than a little shrill and boring with the constant rant about Busse's and Swamp Rats and their BIG FAT FREAKING EDGES!!!"

Let's just say I'm tired of the happy horse sh*t where every newbie gets recommended a Swamp Rat.
 
and you know what? newbies tend to do really dumb things with knives.

many, MANY times i've handed a knife to a person who wanted to use it, only to sit there and watch them tap the edge on a glass or a bottle sitting next to them.

swamp rat is a good choice for newbies.



i've only seen one busse that compared to the edge thickness of my strider mt when i had it. both cases (the busse and the strider), the knife could not cut fabric when i got them. after sharpening (wich took hours), they could shave, cut free hanging toilet paper, and slice tomato's paper thin (though you had to try pretty hard to keep the cut even). i had changed the innitial cutting edge angle from around 50-60 degree's per side (yes, they were actually more obtuse then a square) to 21-28 degree's per side, but the metal directly behind the edge stayed the same.

a knife is an instrument that is ment to sperate an object or material into two where it would previously be difficult to do so without a given tool. generally, a clean seperation is desired, but not always (as with serrated knives and the like). it is one of the most widely "misused" objects if it is truly only meant to have its edge placed on an object, put in a back and forth movement until said object is seperated into two parts. knives get used as hammers, axe's, screwdrivers, crowbars, and whatever else you need a tool for that you dont have. not all knives need to be thin (both in edge, and in spine thicknes)


and this thread is indeed ancient. and on a general line of threads that probably should never be brought back up.
 
averageguy said:
I edited to correct link. Just in case the link becomes mysteriously corrupted again see this post by Wheeler - Joss's pack knife in progress - in the custom knife forum.

"PLEASE go take whatever medications that you've been skipping, because you've become more than a little shrill and boring with the constant rant about Busse's and Swamp Rats and their BIG FAT FREAKING EDGES!!!"

Let's just say I'm tired of the happy horse sh*t where every newbie gets recommended a Swamp Rat.
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As opposed to other forums, where the shills all gather 'round every question and yell, "Bark River, Bark River!! Now what was the question?"

Busse/Swamp Rat make good, durable knives with good steel. I've found a **lot** of knives with very obtuse edges, including (sit down, now), Opinel. Yes, it was a thin knife, but had a very obtuse edge. So did a couple of my Doziers. They were all easily corrected in a few minutes on a DMT Blue stone.

Back to the question, I think the BK9 will handle this, but with a lot more damage than a Swamp Rat. If you are worried about the accidental impacts which are a reality, then I'd say go with a Swamp Rat. If you can ever get one out of the shop, they are really bad about actually getting the knife to you, but that's another story.

Now that I've irritated both sides, back to our regularly scheduled programming.... ;) :D
 
SethMurdoc said:
swamp rat is a good choice for newbies.
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There are various types of knives in that line, the Rat Trap's edge profile compares to the more efficient Spyderco folders, the D2 Safari Skinner compares well to the Dozier K2, the Howling Rat is thinner at the edge than the CU/7, and so forth.

As for the concrete block and the whole "newbie" attitude, hard impacts happen with large knives commonly in places were you are not familiar with the landscape in detail such as :

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y269/CliffStamp/Heafner%20Bowie/hb_rocks.jpg

Which generated a large impact of blade on rock, many times over far worse than a concrete block chop.

Are newbies attracted to the whole "nuclear tough" arguement, yeah probably, most people tend to use blades which are far overbuilt for what they are doing, that doesn't mean they don't have value.

averageguy said:
I suggest, given all the work you do with knives that you take the time to examine some real ones - start with the link above.
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I have worked with several ABS blades, and many others with similar profiles (Valiant), in fact I have worked with customs which are even far thinner ground than the ABS blades you are referencing, should I then apply all your comments to them?

If you compare Swamp Rat to the ABS blades of similar size yes the ABS blades tend to run slimmer edge profiles, some of them run actually thick edges but wide sweeping bevels, like Kirk, so the edge is thicker but more acute, some like Carter run minimal edge profiles, so thin you can't see them.

If you compare an Opinel to a Spyderco Paramilitary it makes the Paramiliary look thick in comparison, in fact the relative difference here is much larger. I even have blades which are that much again thinner than the Opinel.

Thus should I talk about the Opinel and Paramilitary being cold chisels in profile, which makes more sense than calling it an axe by the way as a derogatory term, a wood working axe has the same profile as the ABS blade you reference.

Depends on the wood of course, soft wood felling axes are different than hard wood ones, which are different again than root grubbers.

As well as noted there is more to a knife that the thickness of the edge, the angle of the edge, the nature of the primary grind are also fairly large factors in the cutting ability. It doesn't take you very long to find hordes of shallow sabre ground blades with obtuse edges.

-Cliff
 
Short and simple, isn't the chopping of a cinderblock just to demonstrate the edge isn't going to have large chips in it as a result? Other knives maybe able to chop through a cinderblock, but it may result in much more damage to the edge that would be harder to repair in the field, if repairable at all.
 
WadeF said:
... isn't the chopping of a cinderblock just to demonstrate the edge isn't going to have large chips in it as a result?
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Yes, you could just whack the knife into a rock, the concrete block is just more standard due to size and composition. It really isn't that hard or an extreme of a test, rock is is usually much worse to hit.

Lots of wood working is in fact far more demanding, the Extreme Judgement for example took far greater damage batoning through a piece of wood than when it was popped into some concrete.

The concrete just did some light chipping to the edge, the batoning actually induced the blade to ripple which penetrated above the edge bevel. Hard limbing can be devestating to blades which can whack up blocks all day long.


-Cliff
 
when i said that swamp rat knives are good for newbies, i didnt mean to imply that the tests that are generally used to portray their ability to take hard impacts without major damage are childish, i meant to imply that because swamp rat knives are capable of taking that kind of use, they are good for people who misuse knives.

and again, i dont mean that chopping a concrete block in order to critically examine the level of failure in the knifes edge as misuse, i portray the misuse of a knife as using the knife in a dangerous way without knowing the threats involved. such as tapping a bottle (or breaking one) with your knife edge, or just randomly stabbing the tip into a brick wall because your bored. there is no intent in these actions (when i see them done by random people), it is simply an act of boredom without realizing the damage they may incure on their knife.

because of this, swamp rat knives are good knives for such people, because while they will probably incur damage by misusing the knife (being unaware of the potential damage of their actions), the damage will be reversable and not severe.

hence, swamp rat knives are good for newbies (because they are strong and can take the abuse while the person learns how to use the knife without inadvertantly damaging it)
 
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