Bearings on Non- Flipper Knives

Insipid Moniker said:
Bearing are inevitably more expensive and they're honestly a solution for a problem that doesn't exist. I've not met a knife yet that my thumb muscles are insufficient to open no matter what it rides on. They're fun, which is great, but other than that they're an unnecessary embellishment that I don't love paying more for. So, for me at least, put 'em on the knives that I love to sit on the couch and play with, but leave them far off the work horses that I take in and beat on, not because they're bad, but simply because they're an expensive flourish that nobody really needs.
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Couldn't you say the same thing about basically every knife on this forum? It's all excessive isn't it? Anyone using anything (folder) besides a utility blade is using an expensive flourish that nobody really needs.

IMO, the more bearings, washers, blade shapes, locks, etc., the better! I do prefer nicely done washers to bearings though :)
 
Two more off the top of my head (non-flippers with IKBS/bearings)...

TAD MK4
CRKT Eros
 
kniferbro said:
Couldn't you say the same thing about basically every knife on this forum? It's all excessive isn't it? Anyone using anything (folder) besides a utility blade is using an expensive flourish that nobody really needs.

IMO, the more bearings, washers, blade shapes, locks, etc., the better! I do prefer nicely done washers to bearings though :)
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Simply put, no, you couldn't, at least not accurately. Practical innovation is very much a part of the knife industry, many of us far overbuy our needs, but just because we don't need a steel that will hold an edge through 10,000 linear feet of cardboard doesn't mean that nobody does. Utility blades have are almost entirely unable to deal with any kind of lateral force and they only offer a very small amount of cutting edge. They're very efficient cutters, but they simply don't meet everyone's needs.

You're also erecting a strawman. I'm fine with bearings, I'm just also realistic about the fact that the only actual advantage they offer is in fun. When dealing with any hobby fun can be extremely important, but my blades that I value for much more practical reasons? No, I don't want them to cost more because someone wants a them to be a bit more toyetic.
 
Insipid Moniker said:
Simply put, no, you couldn't, at least not accurately. Practical innovation is very much a part of the knife industry, many of us far overbuy our needs, but just because we don't need a steel that will hold an edge through 10,000 linear feet of cardboard doesn't mean that nobody does. Utility blades have are almost entirely unable to deal with any kind of lateral force and they only offer a very small amount of cutting edge. They're very efficient cutters, but they simply don't meet everyone's needs.

You're also erecting a strawman. I'm fine with bearings, I'm just also realistic about the fact that the only actual advantage they offer is in fun. When dealing with any hobby fun can be extremely important, but my blades that I value for much more practical reasons? No, I don't want them to cost more because someone wants a them to be a bit more toyetic.
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IM, sometimes I just like to casually talk about knives. Not every interaction has to be a contentious bout. I too prefer washers to bearings for the same reasons you do... like I already said. I think we agree on a lot things, but I don't think that matters. :)
 
Bastinelli (manufactured by lionsteel) makes some really nice not flipper IKBS knives. IKBS isn't really what I would call it as it used captive washer bearings but they are very well made and the one I had that I liked a lot was the R.E.D. folder. The thumbstud was also designed in a way that it was easily opened similar to how a wave works. In fact it worked better than most wave knives I have used.


Insipid Moniker said:
Simply put, no, you couldn't, at least not accurately. Practical innovation is very much a part of the knife industry, many of us far overbuy our needs, but just because we don't need a steel that will hold an edge through 10,000 linear feet of cardboard doesn't mean that nobody does. Utility blades have are almost entirely unable to deal with any kind of lateral force and they only offer a very small amount of cutting edge. They're very efficient cutters, but they simply don't meet everyone's needs.

You're also erecting a strawman. I'm fine with bearings, I'm just also realistic about the fact that the only actual advantage they offer is in fun. When dealing with any hobby fun can be extremely important, but my blades that I value for much more practical reasons? No, I don't want them to cost more because someone wants a them to be a bit more toyetic.
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I disagree that they only add fun factor. For me a bearing system isn't about smoothness. Most of the friction and perceived smoothness is directly the result of the detent and lockbar pressure. Bearings however eliminate as much if not all perceivable blade play without the need of the lockbar to isolate blade movement in the locked position. And they eliminate much of the guesswork with dialing in a pivot. But the logic that they are just a fun thing and dont serve any real need? You could say that anything over a common single blade friction folder of 3" of blade length is a want and not really a need by most standards. I can fully appreciate that YOU dont see the advantage of a bearing pivot. But that does not mean others will feel the same way and their usefulness will depend on who you are talking to. Unlike you, if I had my way every single pivot on every single knife would be a bearing pivot. The only knives I dont want with bearings are balisongs and out the front autos. And even in OTF's I have been thinking of a system to implement bearings to reduce blade play. But then G&G invented the deadlock and it kinda took the wind out of my sails.
 
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PURPLEDC said:
I disagree that they only add fun factor. For me a bearing system isn't about smoothness. Most of the friction and perceived smoothness is directly the result of the detent and lockbar pressure. Bearings however eliminate as much if not all perceivable blade play without the need of the lockbar to isolate blade movement in the locked position. And they eliminate much of the guesswork with dialing in a pivot. But the logic that they are just a fun thing and dont serve any real need? You could say that anything over a common single blade friction folder of 3" of blade length is a want and not really a need by most standards. I can fully appreciate that YOU dont see the advantage of a bearing pivot. But that does not mean others will feel the same way and their usefulness will depend on who you are talking to. Unlike you, if I had my way every single pivot on every single knife would be a bearing pivot. The only knives I dont want with bearings are balisongs and out the front autos. And even in OTF's I have been thinking of a system to implement bearings to reduce blade play. But then G&G invented the deadlock and it kinda took the wind out of my sails.
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Again, you could say that, but you would be pretty inaccurate in doing so. I've honestly never noticed that my bearing pivot knives have significantly less bladeplay or are easier to dial in, though I happily concede that I don't have nearly as much experience with them as you do and I would count those as practical advantages, albeit fairly minor ones. As for wanting/seeing the advantage, I'm right there with you on that being entirely a matter of personal preference. Usefulness, though, is personal, but objective and I would ask you what knife would be more useful, and how, with a bearing pivot and vice versa.
 
kniferbro said:
IM, sometimes I just like to casually talk about knives. Not every interaction has to be a contentious bout. I too prefer washers to bearings for the same reasons you do... like I already said. I think we agree on a lot things, but I don't think that matters. :)
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I'm confused as to why you think this isn't casual.
 
I love caged bearings. They definitely make pivot adjustment much easier (i.e., knife still easy to open/close but zero lateral play, as noted above) and can indeed be superbly smooth. I edc several bearing-equipped folders on a regular basis, and I haven't noticed any issues with performance due to them getting "gunked" up. I've had them so full of pocket lint from my jeans that it looked like a tiny snow storm when I finally blew them out with a can of compressed air, but I noticed no change in performance. If you're using your folder either for a lot of nasty stuff (like cutting raw meat) where frequent sterilization is necessary or using it in a really sandy/gritty environment, bearings could present an issue, I guess, but for my uses they are great. I have nothing against a good set of PB washers, but I have grown to prefer caged bearings.
 
kniferbro said:
Do you usually point out logical fallacies (there wasn't one, I was agreeing with you) in all of your casual conversations?
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Truly, honestly? Yeah, pretty much. I'm from a long line of pedants, which I've tried to work on, but it still comes through most of the time. ;)
 
Probably the best application I've seen was on a Tom Krein Alpha I handled at Blade some years ago. I didn't think bearings would make a difference on a non flipper, but I was impressed. It was a liner lock IIRC.
 
Insipid Moniker said:
I'm fine with bearings, I'm just also realistic about the fact that the only actual advantage they offer is in fun.
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PURPLEDC said:
I disagree that they only add fun factor. For me a bearing system isn't about smoothness. Most of the friction and perceived smoothness is directly the result of the detent and lockbar pressure. Bearings however eliminate as much if not all perceivable blade play without the need of the lockbar to isolate blade movement in the locked position. And they eliminate much of the guesswork with dialing in a pivot.
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Pericles said:
The practical advantage of a ball-bearing system is to eliminate blade play.
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PURPLEDC, this is precisely the point I was trying to make.
The fun factor, while fun, is not very important to me.
Again, I feel that the benefits conferred by a bearing pivot would be best realized in systems such as the Axis and Compression lock,
where free-falling blade closure is a practical advantage more than an aesthetic one.

As for dirt and gunk gumming up your bearings, this has never been an issue for me, although any knife you drop on a sandy beach will probably need disassembled and cleaned.
 
Pericles said:
PURPLEDC, this is precisely the point I was trying to make.
The fun factor, while fun, is not very important to me.
Again, I feel that the benefits conferred by a bearing pivot would be best realized in systems such as the Axis and Compression lock,
where free-falling blade closure is a practical advantage more than an aesthetic one.

As for dirt and gunk gumming up your bearings, this has never been an issue for me, although any knife you drop on a sandy beach will probably need disassembled and cleaned.
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You're definitely going to have to convince me that free-falling blade closure is a practical advantage. Again, I have knives that do it and think it's fun, but I'm pretty firm on the practical advantage lying in the other direction, as that doesn't involve a sharp blade speeding towards fingers without resistance.
 
Insipid Moniker said:
You're definitely going to have to convince me that free-falling blade closure is a practical advantage. Again, I have knives that do it and think it's fun, but I'm pretty firm on the practical advantage lying in the other direction, as that doesn't involve a sharp blade speeding towards fingers without resistance.
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Ok.

On a liner- or framelock, I see no practical advantage, as you need to get your thumb out of the way of the blade to close the knife.

On a Compression or Axis lock, you actuate the lock release... and the blade can go home... without your digits ever crossing the path of the blade.
Safe, intuitive one-handed closing is one of the advantageous features of both of these locking systems, and the less friction on the pivot, the better it works.
A bearing pivot largely eliminates the need to compromise between friction and blade play: you can have smooth opening and closing and the "monolithic" stability of a tight pivot.
My Mini-Grip has, and will always have, some blade play to allow for easy closing. This doesn't make it unusable, but it does make the whole system feel less stable than other knives I own.

I would like to emphasize that I never suggested that all knives should run on bearings, as I don't think that's necessary.
Of the dozens of knives I own and use, only three run on bearings. Most are happily wearing washers.
Opinel? Higo No Kami? No bearings, and no washers. Both function as intended.

Where I specifically want to see the bearing "fad" (I don't think it is one) to go next:

Axis lock.
Compression lock.
 
One of the smoothest knives I have...a BM 761...is a non flipper with bearings. I love the thing and it gets as much carry time as my Sebenzas
 
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