Because someone had to do it...... (the perfect ZT300)

[SladeGT40]

How bout this. I have a particular knife with a 3" blade and choil. Using the choil I can position my thumb on top of the blade to act as a depth stop. Cutting cardboard this way is a breeze since the tip is thin with a thin deep swedge. I can also control how much blade penetrates a carton this way. It's like having two different geometries to the blade. That's about the only use I have for a choil.

first off let me say that i agree that choils are a great topic of discussion. to offer my .02, i work in receiving of rather expensive items and most of those items come in over boxes with a bit of foam protecting them from harm, in these situations i find a choil useful sometimes, basically i've carried everything i own at work at one time or another, and i agree that in a knife like the 300 series a choil wouldn't necessarily help performance given its intended use.

however, in a knife like the R.A.M., i found that i would alter my grip to accommodate the hawk lock and i found myself in a similar grip as to what smegs describes where my finger would kind of pinch the choil and my thumb would press up into the three thumbstuds and i would achieve a very precise cut to any depth i required. and i tried using the 301 for cardboard cutting of the same nature and found it more suited to the destroying the boxes afterwards.

 

[KenOnion]

Thanks JTR, I sincerely appreciate that!! I'm somewhat playing devils advocate here. I am pretty blunt about my dislike for choils for most knives however there are instances where a choil may come in handy such as gentleman,grooming or caping knives. I still put choils on some models because there are guys that want them. On knives designed for utility,everyday suburban carry I don't have to much of an issue. I'm just curious as hell as to what people like about them and what practical purpose they have. I guess I just don't get it although I am ready to be sold and think this as good a time to weigh the pros and cons as any. Who knows I may become a convert by the end of this thread.

 

[KenOnion]

first off let me say that i agree that choils are a great topic of discussion. to offer my .02, i work in receiving of rather expensive items and most of those items come in over boxes with a bit of foam protecting them from harm, in these situations i find a choil useful sometimes, basically i've carried everything i own at work at one time or another, and i agree that in a knife like the 300 series a choil wouldn't necessarily help performance given its intended use.

however, in a knife like the R.A.M., i found that i would alter my grip to accommodate the hawk lock and i found myself in a similar grip as to what smegs describes where my finger would kind of pinch the choil and my thumb would press up into the three thumbstuds and i would achieve a very precise cut to any depth i required. and i tried using the 301 for cardboard cutting of the same nature and found it more suited to the destroying the boxes afterwards.

The RAM is a great knife and the choil works well on this knife. Thats a cool knife with or without a choil!

 

[mongomondo]

When you were designing the Zero Tolerance folders didn't the Strider guys try to convince you to use a choil? But I agree with you I like the choil on a small EDC like a spyderco caly but not on a big beefy folder like the 300.

 

[SladeGT40]

The RAM is a great knife and the choil works well on this knife. Thats a cool knife with or without a choil!

thanks ken, always cool to hear one knifemaker praise another's work. and i agree the RAM is cool. just wait to i get my hands on the snakewood scales firebert made.

 

[nozh2002]

I disagree because if you place your thumb along the spine and your pointer finger in the choil , you risk injury to your pointer finger if you slip and also because a portion of your palm will be riding along the spine of the blade and create a hot spot and negate the ergo's of the handle designed to minimalize and or eliminate hot spots. You have much more leverage for a cut if your thumb is wrapped around the handle plus you don't risk having the knife slip/twist in your hand .You would also minimalize the safety aspects of the finger guard.
Question: Why would you chop small branches with a choked up grip on your knife? Wouldn't you loose alot of momentum and risk smashing your pointer finger ?

I really like this discussion guys. And feel to choil or not is a great topic for discussion and rarely to never gets discussed.

I am not saying that this is only way to hold knife - in geneal I hold it without pointing finger on the choil. Like in case of chopping branches - I use knife for "leveling" this bush and in this case some branches got into choil ruining move (same what you have slashing cardboard).

But if you finger right near edge - you control it right near the action - I will not try to explain mechanics it in English, instead give you example - it is like writing with pen holding in near the tip, rather then holding it at the opposite end of the handle.

Slipping is an issue if you do not have guard or flipper (in case of your design), This flipper squised between pointer finger and middle finger so it actually gives more control for moves in both directions - push and pull.

What I am saying is that you point is valid and in some use-cases choil is inconvenient, but there are other use-cases where it became quite handy. I believe that in my modification I have kind of half-choil which did not create that kind of hook where cardboard (or branches) can be caught in, so it is not too bad.

Thanks, Vassili.

 

[iamtoast]

In general I avoid knives with choils, as stated somewhere above I would generally like more blade on a folder if possible, not less. The only exception I can think of is if I wanted to use a knife as a carry knife for edc type purposes and to use for carving wood. In such a case I would probably be carrying a larger fixed bladed knife anyway and would probably only occur when I am camping. The spiderco native looks like it would be an ideal knife for this purpose.

But on a folding knife that is designed for self defense and hard use I use, a choil on the blade as one of the factors I use to determine what knives not to buy. I also lump serrations in on that but its personal preference and with so many nice knives out there one can afford to be choosy.

Ken,

I am really loving the Bumps and Shallots. The Shallot has to be one of the best designed knives, for me, that I have yet seen. I would like to think that if I were to design a knife it would come out that great, it wouldn't, but I would like to think so.

 

[So-Lo]

BTW,I just want to say it is an honor to be on the same forum as the legendary Ken Onion:thumbup:...no butt kissing intended,it's just a real pleasure...I've always loved your work:thumbup:

Very nice indeed. Shows Ken has a true love for what he does.

Anyways, I like knives with choils or without a choils. What matters to me, is if the knife snags on the start of the cut. (Like a SNG can) The recurve on the 300 let's you start the cut on the mid belly area. Where the curve starts.

So yes this knife intended uses may not need a choil, but the sharpening notch was already so big, and the flipper was a little on the fat side. I did not lose hardly any edge. See the pic with the black marker drawn on it. And, I did not lose that much edge, that was just something to go by. At the end of the mod, black was still on the edge.

Now the knife can not snag when choked up. If the sharp edge went all the way to the flipper I would not of even thought about a choil being needed. As I love blade lenght.

One thing for sure is Im glad its not there, then there because you can always cut one in than take one out.

BTW the custom 300 is way too cool

Thanks for all the "at a boys." its a great design either way :thumbup:

 

[rowdy27]

The Kershaw Echo is one of my all-time faves that does not use a choil. I really dig Ken's designs! Cheers!
My SOG Gov-Tac is another fave that does have a choil. I find it quite handy when choking down on the blade for light/fine chores near the handle..it's all good.
At least now we know what to seek in a true fighting design.

 

[J_Curd]

I'm just curious as hell as to what people like about them and what practical purpose they have.

Me too. All I've ever gotten from them was a cut finger. And if the knife is so big you need to "choke up" on the grip, you're using a knife that's too large for the task. The only knives I've seen them on that I like are the small Spydercos where they give a tiny knife a normal sized grip, and even then its just "tolerable".

 

[rowdy27]

If it's the only knife handy, you gotta make do with it. It ain't rocket science.

 

[John Frederick]

To Ken Onion,

I really appreciate you taking the time to give us your opinion regarding choils. I have always liked choils on my knives but never really found myself using the feature. The points you brought up have changed my mind about the usefulness of choils.
Interestingly enough, I find that the flipper on the 301 is large enough that I can choke up on the blade as if it had a choil and it's only slightly less comfortable than if it had one.

 

[Dog of War]

Great discussion.

I'm not a big fan of choils myself, I hate it when you're doing hard, rough slicing and you get hung up by the choil. Also the very rear portion of the blade is what I want to use when I have to cut through something really tough.

And with the thumb extending like 3" beyond the index finger when holding a knife in a grip, I agree with Ken, I just don't find a finger choil that useful ... plus unless it's a really big finger choil (or had finger guard on the front of it, I guess ) I feel it's a bit unsafe.

But thankfully we have options to satisfy everyone -- or you can add your own choil, like the OP has. Kum Ba Yah, oh, Kum Ba Yah!

 

[So-Lo]

I wonder why so many knives have a huge sharpening notch? The 300 has it, all the strider folders have them.... And many many others. Why? For me they snag.

Why would anyone EVER need a sharpening notch that big?

 

[KenOnion]

I wonder why so many knives have a huge sharpening notch? The 300 has it, all the strider folders have them.... And many many others. Why? For me they snag.

Why would anyone EVER need a sharpening notch that big?

I agree! I'm not a fan of the sharpening notch either. I didn't put them in many of my designs for years however the demand for them was high so I started adding them to several new designs due to consumer demands . To me they are just another opportunity for a snag as you stated.Don't get me wrong ,there are a ton of great knives out there that utilize them and they are still great cutters. Some like them for the visual transition from blade to handle . Some claim there knife is harder to sharpen without them. Some claim that as they sharpen there knife and there blade wears they get an ugly curve just forward of the plunge.All points are valid . I just think a knife should be able to float through whatever ,with as little effort as possable. Anything that has the potential for stalling a cut should be thoroughly thought out befor hand and the decision to include a choil or sharpening notch should outweigh the possable draw backs.
My decision to include these features on several knives have been largely due to consumer demand and my job is to design the best knife I can but also to keep you guys/consumers happy. I could be an asshole and shove my philosophies on you all but I really try to listen to what you want and design around those criteria. If I can get 99% of what I want out of a design and add that little feature that makes the consumer comfortable then I am happy. This is great because Kershaw also builds stuff like the Bump,chive ,scallion,Leek etc ... that have all the features I like and they are available for those that have the same mind set as I do. I'm always open for differing opinions and try not to discount them but rather ask questions to make sure these opinions were thought out thoroughly and in the event I'm wrong and I have neglected some aspect of the design well I am big enough to admit it and move forward with new purpose.
To choil or not is more a decision on what is the intended purpose of said knife and how it is going to be used than deciding if choils should be avoided entirely. That is largely a personal decision and I think We have worked very hard to insure there is something for everyone. The beauty of these sorts of discussions are to obtain this sort of vital information and opinion, make you guys think about the subtlties of knives and differing uses for these options and with as much information as possable use this information when designing the next line up.

 

[KenOnion]

So-Lo , If you look carefully at the 300 you will notice that the thumb studs set forward of the sharpening notch ,this should help minimalize the potential for snag.

 

[SPXTrader]

Thanks for the insight Ken! I really enjoy reading your perspective on things!

 

[riffraff]

I agree! I'm not a fan of the sharpening notch either.

So, I have this new Sharpmaker system (with the optional diamond rods) I'm learning to use. What is the advantage (or disadvantage) of a sharpening notch with such a system?

Thanks.

 

[So-Lo]

Thanks for the insight Ken! I really enjoy reading your perspective on things!

+1 on that. Its not everyday you can chat with a superstar

Honestly I think anyone would be hard pressed to design a better "hard use" knife than the 300. Can't wait to see what else you and Kershaw have up your sleeves.

 

[SPXTrader]

Not to train-wreck your thread So-Lo, but hey riffraff! You used those diamond rods yet to reprofile? If so, how did they do (on what steel)? What grits did you get?