Becker - A Busse Killer?

Joined
Jan 4, 1999
Messages
3,000
Becker – A Busse Killer?

The Becker Campanions arrived this week and we filled all the backorders. The same thing happened with the Busses a couple of weeks ago. So we had examples of each for the first time together. Here are some reactions.

The issue of steel and the magical qualities thereof are something I normally view with a fairly jaundiced eye. I can’t tell you whether Beckers or Busses have better steel. I can only tell you that they both have high quality carbon steel blades, they are hefty and thick and they are black coated. I make an assumption that the steels in each knife are competitive and comparable. If someone else has some test data then I’m not hard to convince since I haven’t done any blade testing with the knives. For now I assume you shouldn’t worry about the steel composition.

The Becker BK2 Campanion is an obvious competitor to the Busse Basic 5 and 7. It is heavier than the Busse (It’s actually heavier than the larger Busse Basic 7) and has a taller (wider blade) with a two part grind instead of the the single flat grind of the Busse. The handles on the Becker are thicker and harder than the handles on the Basic 5 and they are attached full tang style with nuts and bolts. The Busses have handles molded right on the tangs. I think a person with smaller hands would consider the Busse a more comfortable handle and those with medium or larger hands might prefer the Becker. There is no doubt that the Becker’s harder scales will tolerate more abrasion and abuse than the softer compound on the Busse.

The Beckers are equipped with Kydex belt sheaths while the Busses come with leather. I view this is purely a matter of personal preference. I simply mention it so that people can exercise that preference.

My opinion is that the Beckers display better fit and finish. To test this I laid out a Busse 5 and 7 alongside a Campanion and asked the employees to judge which knife was the most expensive of the three. The Campanion got all the votes.

Assuming steel performance to be comparable or close between these knives, I would consider the Beckers to be a better value in every sense of the word. They appear to be better made with better materials for less money. If steel performance is not comparable, then, of course, all bets are off. I was pretty impressed with the Campanion and I know the customers who are receiving them this week will be equally impressed. Yes, I think they are Busse killers.

Congratulations to Camillus for a great new product line that I know will be successful for them.


------------------
Fred
Knife Outlet
http://www.knifeoutlet.com
 
Knife Outlet :

Assuming steel performance to be comparable or close between these knives, I would consider the Beckers to be a better value in every sense of the word.

Do they have a similar warrenty? I have two Busse blades, a Basic #7 and a Battle Mistress. If Camillus could offer better performance I would be interested. If they could offer similar ability at less money my friends would.

-Cliff
 
Wow Fred those are some serious words you are laying down. I hope you have your flame retardant suit handy. The fit and finish I saw on the Busse knives I handled a few weeks ago was very good so I can't wait until my Companion arrives, if they are as good as you say.

And if you would hurry up and send me the Magnum Camp knife I ordered from you, I could test it on my lilacs I'm clearing off.
smile.gif
I know, I know...June or later isn't it? Can't Camillus start paying their crew overtime or something?
smile.gif




------------------
Hoodoo

The low, hoarse purr of the whirling stone—the light-press’d blade,
Diffusing, dropping, sideways-darting, in tiny showers of gold,
Sparkles from the wheel.

Walt Whitman
 
Fred, interesting initial comparison. I had been planning to get a Busse #5 or #7, but if the Campanion performs according to expectations, Busse has definitely got some serious competition. I will certainly give the Campanion a good workout this year, along with a Busse #5. Appearance is one thing, but performance is the bottomline and I have a feeling both knives will do well. I would echo Fred's remark that Camillus has definitely a good concept with the Campanion.

Harry

[This message has been edited by Kozak (edited 04-05-2000).]
 
Fred, I have a basic 5..... And it is damn heavy for its size.. (im comparing it to a recon tanto, which it is heavier than) Thats some kinda weight behind that knife..
 
Hoodoo,

Don't be in a big rush for the Magnum Camp. It isn't due until the Fall. As I said, I haven't tested the blade steel. In every other respect including price the Campanion is a better value. If it underperforms the Busse then that's a different issue. It's an issue I haven't addressed. Personally I don't think there will be much difference between them in performance but I could be wrong. Take care.


------------------
Fred
Knife Outlet
http://www.knifeoutlet.com
 
I'd love to check out the Brute, Machax, and the Magnum Camper. Will, Phil, any chance of checking out the prototypes for these?

Harry
 
Are these knives not available yet, or is it that they are being supplied as we speak. How is it that a production knife is not in production. Is it an advertising hype method?

Well, whatever the case they look good. Maybe someday we'll be able to do a real comparison. Tough blades are my life and these look good. But looks are not enough. Performance is unknown as of yet, or is it?

When can we expect to get knives like the brute or camper?
 
I have a medium sized hand, maybe even on the smaller side. I love the handle, I meen I love it. Even my wife with small hands said, "this knife has a nice grip." So, even a small hand will like it. All anyone needs to do is pick it up and the knife will sell it's self.
 
I am sad to say that your comment based on looks alone is a bit off the mark. I buy a knife to work and therefore the performance is paramount.

As for the better fitting .....all handmade products will display a small variance in fit and finish. There is no human that can consistently fit and finish to 0.0001 inches. Machines can, so please stick to comparing apples with apples.

Overall ......an attempt at riding on the back of Busse to sell knives. Some major manufactures have had public claims on their blade performance nuked by the Busse tests…….... and I do not count Camillus as one. Camillus may make a lot of knives but overall, their designs has lacked a bit of flair although very workman like.

Put it this way …why buy a V8 Chevy when the same looks can be had in a 6 cyl ……… PERFORMANCE !!


[This message has been edited by Aubrey (edited 04-11-2000).]
 
Aubrey-

With all due respect, If Camillus isn't a major manufacturer, who is?

They probably produce more knives than any other American manufacturer.

In addition to their own brands, they are the best known OEM knife manufacturer to the rest of the industry.

FYI,

Anthony
 
Anthony, I think Aubrey knows how large and well known Camillus is. That's not his point. Many manufacturers have stated in the past that they can equal the Busse knives and maybe be even better.

Cold Steel makes a great knife in the Trailmaster Carbon V. It is flat ground and 5/16 inch thick with a rolled edge. In other words everything needed for a good survival knife. I think M.Turber tested against the Busse Basic and it lost.

I really like the looks of these BK&T knivs, but until they can be compared with knives like the busse basics and even the trailmaster, no one should be jumping to a conclusion like: "Assuming steel performance to be comparable or close between these
knives, I would consider the Beckers to be a better value in every sense
of the word. " That is a mighty big assumption. The Busse Basics have proven themselves, lets see if the BK&T knives can do so also. Until then any opinions are pure fiction. I really hope they do well, since I will most likely get one or two if they do.
 
Aubrey:

You're way off base. I sell both Camillus and Busse. I'd rather sell a Busse since it is more expensive and generates more gross profit for our company.

Is fit and finish important? Of course. It has a lot to do with the value of a knife. If two knives perform comparably (I didn't say they did, I just said they probably do)and one has better fit and finish then it's a better value. Period. It may not appeal to someone more for whatever reason, but fit and finish has much to do with the cost of a knife and fits into the value equation in a big sort of way. In an industry where many knives are bought and never used, it may be more important that performance for many customers. Obviously not for you.

Our employees were asked to to look at and handle the knives. They were asked which one they thought was the most expensive. They voted for the Becker. I'm just reporting that. You criticize their competence because they prefer something you don't prefer. I think you have the agenda, not I.

You have convinced me that I shouldn't provide public comparisons between knives so I'll never do it again. In fact I think I'll just keep my opinions to myself. Apparently it isn't OK for me to state an opinion on this board.

Open your mind, Aubrey. Different people have different opinons. Because those opinions don't agree with yours doesn't make them incompetent opinions. I haven't criticized your opinions, just your insistence on questioning the motivation and competence of people who disagree with you. Take care.

------------------
Fred
Knife Outlet
http://www.knifeoutlet.com
 
If I may make a suggestion, in addition to the people who have received the Campanion, could Cliff Stamp be approached to do testing of the Campanion as he is known for his rigorous, yet fair testing of knives? This should resolve any performance concerns as expressed by Aubrey, Cobalt, and others.

Harry
 
Fred, I would agree with Aubrey in that making performance statements to the extent that you have done without any work to base it on is not overly sensible. As well, like Aubrey, I noted the attempt to ride off of Busse without, it seems, their warrenty. If the latter is true, and Camillus will not stand behind their products to the extent that Busse does then the claims you are making are nothing but hype.

-Cliff
 
Cliff:

I haven't made a single statement about the performance of a Busse or a Becker other than to say I haven't tested either one. What hype? I give up. I'm out of here. I'll get back to business and keep my opinions to myself.

------------------
Fred
Knife Outlet
http://www.knifeoutlet.com
 
Fred :

I haven't made a single statement about the performance of a Busse or a Becker

What about :

I make an assumption that the steels in each knife are competitive and comparable.

I assume you shouldn't worry about the steel composition.

Those are very strong performance statements. And what about the following where you directly rate the blades :

I would consider the Beckers to be a better value in every sense of the word

Yes, I think they are Busse killers.

What you are doing is promoting the Camillus blades very strongly at a level which you have not evaluated and will not stand behind. This to me is hype.

-Cliff
 
Well Folks,
I leave town for just a few days, and look what happens!

First off, I would like to thank everybody for their interest in the BECKER KNIFE and TOOL line of products. Let me see if I can answer a few specific questions before I wade into the little disagreement[misunderstanding I think] that seems to be taking place.

Cliff,
I'm not sure what Jerry's warranty is on his knives, but I'm sure its a good one. But as to BK&T, we stand behind the knives[and sheaths] 100%. If you manage to break one, we will fix or replace it. Period. We would however, really like to hear the story, and may use it in advertising.

Hoodoo and Fred,
I've got the proto of the MAGNUM CAMP KNIFE here in my hands, and it was just approved by designer Jerry Fisk,ABS Mastersmith and NAtional Living Treasure. Jerry had a couple of tweaks which are being programed into the design now. We should be close to production at BLADESHOW the first week of June. Bottom line, the project is rnning smoother than anticipated, and we will be delivering MAGNUM CAMP KNIVES this summer, probally in June.
biggrin.gif


yoda4561,
Yes the CAMPANION probally heavier than your BUSSE #5 due to its construction. The CAMPANION weighs 14.9 ozs. The difference realizing is due probally to tang construction...the BUSSE[I'm talking the BASIC line here] has a hidden tang, the BK&T line all feature a full lenght, full width tang. More steel in the tang=more weight.

Kozak,
Remember buddy, you WON your CAMPANION! If we have another contest, and we have some proto's of the other models availible, we may give some more out. BTW, the BK5 is called the 'MAGNUM CAMP KNIFE', not the 'Magnum Camper'
wink.gif


Cobalt,
This thread started out talking about the BK&T CAMPANION, which has just started shipping a week or so ago. 5 members of BF won pre-production prototypes in a contest we had here on the CAMILLUS forum, thats where the 'proto' talk comes from. We are currently shipping the CAMPANION and the TACTOOL, with the BRUTE due to start shipping late next week or the following. We are simply waiting on sheaths and shipping them as our supplier, EDGEWORKS[Great people-Great sheaths!], finishes the tooling needed to make the sheaths. There are other threads here on the forum detailing the introduction dates of other BK&T models. Basically, we are introducing the MACHAX and the MAGNUM CAMP KNIFE @ Bladeshow in June.

Aubrey,
The BK&T line of knives ARE machine made knives, with molded handle scales. So, I believe are the BUSSE Basic line of knives. I think Fred IS comparing apples to apples. For my part, I have a Basic #9, and the fit and finish on it and the older Kydex sheath that came with it are quite good.

This concludes what I see in this thread as the concrete, product related questions that everybody had. I'm going to go ahead and post this now, and cover the rest in a separate post. Second post covering the REST of this thread to follow shortly....

Thanks again for your interest!



------------------
Stay Sharp!
Will Fennell
Camillus Cutlery


 
I'm gonna get flamed, but I gotta jump in. In the interest of full disclosure, I'll say that I don't own any Busse knives, and I ordered a Campanion from Knife Outlet on monday (I hope the post above means it's in transit!!!).

I find Knife Outlet's comments quite reasonable. In fact their arguments are some of the very reasons I ordered the campanion and not the busse. It depends on what you mean by "performance". If performance = impressiveness, then yes, it's always more impressive to tell your buddies you spent $200 on a knife than telling them you spent $100.

If performance = it will do what you intend it to do, then I may be naive, but I highly doubt the busse steel is $100 better than the camillus steel. Maybe there is an intended use for the busse that does make their steel $100 better, but I don't know what it could be...(flame mode on. Please don't tell me about using a knife to fell skyscrapers by chopping the steel girders, or using a knife to cut wafer thin slices of kryptonite...knives in the real world don't get used for that, C-4 does :-). The natives in S.A. survive and thrive in the jungle with the cheapest crummy machetes they can get...)

Now if performance = design, then this is a subjective thing and completely valid. Pick the look,feel and geometry that appeals to you...

To me (note: subjective opinion follows), if performance = does what you intend, and your last name ain't Rockefeller, I don't know how you wouldn't pick the Becker...


BTW, the highest "performance" blade I've owned is my 20 year old $20 Camillus usmc style knife. It survived years of serious field abuse in the Army, then survived 10 years in my Texas attic. All it needed was to be "re-discovered" and resharpened, and it's now back on duty, as good as new. As far as impressiveness goes...it's pretty low performance... :-(

[This message has been edited by OccamsRazor (edited 04-07-2000).]
 
Will, if you are going to stand behind your products that is enough for me. Fred, drop me an email when the Magnum Camp knife comes in. It looks to be the closest grind wise to the Battle Mistress.

-Cliff
 
Back
Top