Becker - A Busse Killer?

[JH225]

Scott,

The point I was trying to make was only somewhat sarcastic. In his post on this thread and in another thread on warranties, Will stated that they will replace or repair a damaged knife PERIOD. This sounds to me like they are willing to except some losses to make some of the knife abusers (most of which don't know any better) happy with their products. If this is so then I commend them. If the warranty does not cover abuse, then that should be stated. Just food for thought.

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C.O.'s-"It takes balls to work behind the walls "

 

[Will Fennell]

Jailhack,
Let me cover this again...

BK&T will repair or replace any of our products[sheaths included] that our customers manage to break.

I believe that is close enough to what I said in the post earlier. If you want me to get specific, let me add a couple of dislaimers....

We can't cover coatings, as they will wear during normal usage.

Also, we can't garantee the edge forever, ans it will [slowly] degrade with normal use.

I would love to add to the end of that warranty "..through normal use." Lemme explain why. We put a warranty like this on these products because we believe in them. We want our customers to USE them with confidence. If they need to use a little more 'muscle' to get them through a 'tight spot', they shouldn't be worrying about whether we will warranty they knife at that point. We do not want to haggle with customers about what is 'normal use'.

I believe that more manufacturors would like to have this kind of warranty also, but the hold back. Wanna know why? Because they worry about custmers that will just put the blade in a vise and snap the blade off when they need a new knife. You know, somebody is to lazy to sharpen the blade they have been using for a week or so, so they just break the knife and let the company with the great warranty give them a nice, new, sharp knife.

Believe me, ALOT of beady-eyed accountants voted against this warranty for BK&T, but Ethan[I and others] felt strongly about it. I really hope that some people don't abuse it, and we are able to keep it in place.

So let me see if I understand your question, ....you want to know if its ok with us if you take one of our knives, clamp the blade in a vise, and bend it[probally with a cheater bar] until it breaks. And then you want a new knife?

We will warranty the knives, in good faith. We REALLY hope our customers will use them in good faith. We will not penalize our good customers with a less than fair warranty because of some insist on taking advantage of our faith in our product.

Jailhack, should we just ship the box with 2 knives in it, so everybody can break one for fun, and then maybe use the second one for its intended purpose?

I understand why you asked the question, but understand, this is a PUBLIC forum. I hope you understand my answer.

BTW, if you are LOOKING for a knife that is really intended to be a good 'sharpened pry bar', check out the TACTOOL. In that case, there is a knife intended to that kinda of work.


Thanks Scott, you covered this quite well. Keep those sheaths coming!


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Stay Sharp!
Will Fennell
Camillus Cutlery

 

[JH225]

Will,

Thank you for responding with an answer that does not leave me wondering what the answer really is.

The reason that I asked the question was because you and I both know that eventually some knucklehead will do just as I said and put the knife in a vise "just to see what happens". I myself would never abuse any knife in such a manner, as a knife is a tool and not a pry bar.

I think it is great that Camillus is willing to stand behind their products 100%. I myself am an aspiring maker and I sure hope that no one will abuse my knives in such a destructive manner as described above, and I can see why your beancounters were not to happy with the warranty idea. Hopefully there are not to many people out there who will destroy a knife just for the sake of destroying it.

You are right about that Tactool, it is one mean looking blade and should be able to handle anything thrown it's way.

Again, thanks for the reply and I hope that my question did not offend you, but I have been known to throw a little S*** in the game to get the facts.

Good luck with the new line.

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C.O.'s-"It takes balls to work behind the walls "

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Will :

You know, somebody is to lazy to sharpen the blade they have been using for a week or so, so they just break the knife and let the company with the great warranty give them a nice, new, sharp knife.

I know people who use saws in that manner. They buy a particular brand with very hard teeth that last a long time - the handle is warrentied to be unbreakable. When the saw finally dulls. They just break the handle and get a new saw. Same thing with drill bits and many other tools. However it is not a major problem for the manufacturer as the increase in sales from the guarantee is much larger than the nob factor.

So let me see if I understand your question, ....you want to know if its ok with us if you take one of our knives, clamp the blade in a vise, and bend it[probally with a cheater bar] until it breaks. And then you want a new knife?

Without the bar, I would want to know if the behavior was to be expected or not, if it was not then I would want a new knife, if it was, then I was lied to (as I ask and won't do it unless it is said to be able to do it). I would want a refund for that but realistically don't expect one. If a maker lies to you about performance then trying to get your money back is not a sensible goal.

should we just ship the box with 2 knives in it, so everybody can break one for fun, and then maybe use the second one for its intended purpose?

I have broken a fair amount of blades and usually it is not doing actual constructive work which is the main point a lot of people have a problem with. However I will only do actual stressful work if the blade passed the initial evaluation and if they don't break during it then they very rarely break in actual use.

If a blde is going to break then I would rather be it under controlled circumstances when I am prepared for it. For example if I am going to use a blade for heavy chopping or prying I will stress the blade for impacts and examine the strength in a variety of methods. The blade will usually be duct taped and cloth/leather wrapped during this part and I will wear protective gear.

Taking a blade out and chopping on hard wood (or prying or whatever) right after buying it is irresponsible and no maker should encourage it but of course some do. A blade that fractures under high stress can send a piece of metal flying at high speeds. I have been struck along the back of the hand from pieces broken out of blades during chopping. The metal broke the skin and would have done worse except the angle was almost parallel to my hand. Get a piece in the throat or the eye and it will not be minor.


-Cliff


[This message has been edited by Cliff Stamp (edited 04-11-2000).]

 

[Jim March]

To me, there's only two reasons I'd spend $200 or more on a knife:

1) It's a fighter that's likely to save my bacon in a street encounter - so it's gotta be effective AND intimidating

. Not a factor in this discussion, although Busses and Beckers certainly WILL fight in a pinch

. I own a grand total of four knives in this "ultra-fighter" category, three of which (so far) are street-carry.

2) It's a serious wilderness survival/utility tool that won't fail me far from home. That means long edge life and outstanding toughness. I own two pieces that qualify.

And that's IT, for me. Nothing else justifies the expense.

In category 2, Busse is one of the top contenders on the planet, at any price. I'd be interested to know what steel and Rockwell(s) the Beckers are before considering it in anywhere near the same class as a Busse.

For some people, there's a third category: hard-use industrial-strength tool. That means contruction site use, professional logger, etc. To me, the Becker *might* be the new "king of the hill" in THIS category, where a failure isn't life-and-death but you want something tough enough to beat the hell out of and effective/comfortable enough for daily (mis?)use, yet cost considerations are more serious. As a computer tech by trade, this isn't my area. TOPS and Newt Livesay's stuff are also worth thinking about for this sort of thing.

I'd definately want to see edgeholding performance tests at a minimum before making even the barest glimmerings of a judgement call.

Jim

 

[Ethan Becker]

Is Becker a Busse killer? Or is Busse a Becker killer? I suspect neither. But I'd like to answer these questions with a little personal design philosophy, which may make it easier for you all to put my knives in perspective.

First, they gotta work! The gotta cut and they gotta hack and they gotta pry if they are pryers.

Second, I want my knives to be three generation tools. That means I want your child to find it reflects favorably on your good taste and sensibility. I want it to bring fond memories of you and your son when it passed on to your adventurous grand kid.

Third, I want it to be a comfortable tool to use…without gloves…in the rain....anywhere......

Fourth, I want the BK&T knife to be functionally unbreakable…that if you use it in your hand (and a knife is a hand tool), it won’t break. Yeah, you can probably break a magnum camp by hand, it is a slim .188 thick....but it is scary quick....really slick and chops, slices and dices...beautifully....mmmmm.

Fifth, I want my knives to be affordable. BK&T being a part of Camillus is wonderful for that reason and many more. For instance, the Machax coming out in the year 2000 will have a suggested retail of $129 which is exactly where it was priced in 1987. Camillus is also using better steel than I could afford manufacturing on a small scale. The handle design is four generation old and has a reputation for a high level of comfort…not to mention the wonderful industrial grade elephant snot they are now made from. In short, BK&T knives will now cut better, hold their edges longer, and offer the owner more functional sheaths at very affordable prices.

I mentioned better steel…ah, yes….the magic. People, there are a lot of excellent cutlery steels out there. But I view cutlery steels the way I do fine, old cognacs…after a certain point, there is no best, only different. I hate to say it, but virtually all carbon cutlery steels will perform if heat treated properly. A-2, Carbon V, Busse’s INFI steel, Camillus’ proprietary 0176-6C. Even 1095 and the lowly 4140 that the first Machaxes were made from work just fine. They cut aggressively and well. They hold a fine edge for longer than anything that narrow should. And they are mechanically plenty strong and plenty tough.

Bottom line, guys, if you like the looks of BK&T products and if they fit your hand…give one a try. They ain’t Light Sabers, but they do work for a living.

Ethan


P.S. Is it just me, or did Star Wars screw up all of us? I mean, don't we all believe that somewhere in a land far, far away…that if only we could get there...we could design, manufacture or own a light saber? But then again, who would do the warranty work?

P.S.S. An invitation to Jerry Busse: After a drink with Will, how about I buy the second round in Atlanta?

 

[ramius]

I just ordered a Brute since I learned more about the problems with Busse. NW Cutlery has discontinued carrying Busse because of poor quality sheaths, and Busse customer service has been called into question.

When I buy a knife I also buy into the company. I voted with my earnings.

As for all the rest of the comparative stuff... whatever. Camillus is a quality name with a long history and a good reputation. If the Brute is in the ballpark of a Busse, which early reports would seem to indicate, then you'll see more votes like mine.



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-ramius
"oderint dum metuant"

 

[Cobalt]

More than likely, NW cutlery has pulled out because they can't get enough knives to fill their orders.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Ramius :

If the Brute is in the ballpark of a Busse, which early reports would seem to indicate

Which reports are those?

As for Northwest Cutlery, considering the 420-J2 knives they sell at prices similar to the Busse Basic line, why would anyone take them seriously about knife quality as pertaining to function.

-Cliff


[This message has been edited by Cliff Stamp (edited 05-02-2000).]

 

[ramius]

I'm sorry... I mistyped. I meant to say 'If Becker is in ballpark of the Busse' and not 'Brute is in the ballpark.' I had just ordered a Brute and I have them on the mind.

So let me try restating...

If Becker is in the ballpark of a Busse, which early reports that I read here in bladeforums on the Campanion would seem to indicate, then you'll see more votes like mine.

As for your statement... "As for Northwest Cutlery, considering the 420-J2 knives they sell at prices similar to the Busse Basic line, why would anyone take them seriously about knife quality as pertaining to function."

First, NW Cutlery didn't say anything about steel. They said there was a problem with the sheath. They considered Busse's quality control to be in enough question that they considered it a prudent business decision to stop carrying Busse products. Why would they stop? So their customers would not associate Busse with them. That's about as damning a reference as you can get.

I have factored NW Cutlery into my buying opinion, and spent my earnings accordingly. I will endeavor to see that others know of this and any other problems when they consider spending their earnings.



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-ramius
"oderint dum metuant"

 

[Mr. Dave]

I don't know whether NW Cutlery is a good judge of Busse's quality. Maybe, maybe not. But I see a lot of "Not In Stock" at knife dealer's web pages because demand is a whole lot higher than supply. And hey, if you were in the market for a kick ass, wilderness 4 wheel drive, go anywhere jungle truck, would you trust Consumer Reports?

I can't wait til my 5-7-9s get here: Companion, Busse 7, Brute! That's one to pass to each son (no daughters) and one to keep for myself. One of the boys will get the Brute for sure. By the time they're old enough for toys like that (ahem, pardon me, I meant wilderness survival tools, not toys

) I'll be too durned old to lift the thing.

Oh yeah, and for some on-topic matter. No way will Becker kill Busse. (Are they even trying? I don't think so.) Busse is the yardstick, and the yardstick is always king.
I vote with my money too. Never been to Chicago but I like their motto: "Vote early. Vote often." My next few votes are going to Busse, Becker, Spyderco, Boye, Wusthof, and at least one custom maker. (I can't cast too many votes. The ol' lady says all my knife votes have to come from overtime pay!)


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David

Hooray for Hollywood (Maryland)

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Ramius as for NWC, and the fact that they are dropping the Basic line because of low quality (relative to cost), it is reasonable to conclude that they think that the other knives they sell are worth the price they are selling them for otherwise of course they would drop them as well. Based on this their opinion to judge knife functionality in general and thus the quality of Busse Combat's sheaths specifically means about as much to me as the advice I would get phoning Jo Jo's psychic's hotline.

-Cliff

 

[ramius]

Yeah, those pesky customers just don't know what's good for them. If only customers were as smart as you, then we could avoid that whole customer service thing altogether.

I think NW Cutlery should just get out of the knife business. After all, they don't know what they're talking about. Besides, they've got no right to have an opinion, much less post their opinion on their website! How dare they!

Strange, but the more I hear about Busse the less inclined I am to buy one of their knives. Your ad hominem attack on NW Cutlery has drawn me farther away from spending my earnings unwisely, and for that I thank you.



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-ramius
"oderint dum metuant"