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Becker - A Busse Killer?
- Thread starter Knife Outlet
- Start date
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- 2,805
As a Busse dealer and moderator here at BladeForums, I feel the need, at minimum, to make a few statements regarding this thread...
1) To those who might be wondering where Jerry is on this...he has been away since yesterday afternoon and will return tonight or tomorrow. At the moment, he is not even aware of this thread...I think he will find it interesting reading to say the least.
2) I think Fred's name selection of this post is in poor taste, especially coming from a moderator and dealer representative of Camillus. I've been flamed for killing threads of this sort on the Busse Forum and would do so with this one if I were moderator here.
3) The argument of even remotely suggesting comparable raw material and performance characteristics without any data supporting either is untenable in the highest sense.
Other than that, I think the thread is fine.
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Andy Prisco, Manager
Sharper Instinct, LLC
Phone: 1-201-493-2469
Orders-Toll Free: 1-877-557-5200
Fax: 1-201-493-2039
Visa & Mastercard Accepted
Authorized Dealers:
Busse Combat Knives and Big East Traditional Bows
Professional Shooting Svcs: Corporate Training and Stress Mgmt.
Busse Combat Variant Temp. HQ http://home.earthlink.net/~gregrnamin/andy/sharper.htm
Sharper Instinct Website www.sharperinstinct.com
1) To those who might be wondering where Jerry is on this...he has been away since yesterday afternoon and will return tonight or tomorrow. At the moment, he is not even aware of this thread...I think he will find it interesting reading to say the least.
2) I think Fred's name selection of this post is in poor taste, especially coming from a moderator and dealer representative of Camillus. I've been flamed for killing threads of this sort on the Busse Forum and would do so with this one if I were moderator here.
3) The argument of even remotely suggesting comparable raw material and performance characteristics without any data supporting either is untenable in the highest sense.
Other than that, I think the thread is fine.
------------------
Andy Prisco, Manager
Sharper Instinct, LLC
Phone: 1-201-493-2469
Orders-Toll Free: 1-877-557-5200
Fax: 1-201-493-2039
Visa & Mastercard Accepted
Authorized Dealers:
Busse Combat Knives and Big East Traditional Bows
Professional Shooting Svcs: Corporate Training and Stress Mgmt.
Busse Combat Variant Temp. HQ http://home.earthlink.net/~gregrnamin/andy/sharper.htm
Sharper Instinct Website www.sharperinstinct.com
- Joined
- Oct 2, 1998
- Messages
- 5,461
I don't have any plans, as yet, to test the Busse and BK&T in any head to head competition. Maybe one day but not anytime soon.
Was the title of this thread a poor choice of words? Maybe but it is Fred's right to choose his words and his opinions. Seperating opinions from fact will keep this thread on course and I really see no need to close it. Fred made some visual comparisons and his employees did the same. If I am not mistaken Fred's two other employees are both female so for fun I had Lori (my wife) to do the same visual test. She said she liked the looks of the Busse better but the Becker looked like it cost more. What does that proove? I guess nothing
Fred's statements were based on assumptions (his words) and visual comparisons, not hard data, Keep in mind the average consumer will, 80% of the time, buy on appearance and price. Only knifenuts, like us, will go the extra mile to find out the technical data and testing stuff.
Until the Becker's get tested, the question will remain as to their abilities. But remember the steel the Becker's use has been around the block a few times. Not to mention in similar knives and edge geometry as to what is on the current Becker line. So based on that I would say the Beckers will offer outstanding value for the dollar and they should compare quite nicely with many knives over twice their price.
You guys would absolutely drop Baby Ruths down your pants leg if you knew just how big Camillus was and who they OEM for. No offense Aubrey but I was also confused by your statement. If I am not mistaken Camillus is the largest manufacturer of knives in the US.
I don't think this thread will turn into a flame fest and it should be looked at as this. There is a new kid on the block (actually an old kid as BK&T have been here before) & people will naturally compare knives of similar characteristics and that is that.
Now when my line of Fu-Bar knives come out from Tawain; Busse, Becker, Ka-Bar and Cold Steel may as well just give up
------------------
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BladeForums Site Owner and Administrator
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Was the title of this thread a poor choice of words? Maybe but it is Fred's right to choose his words and his opinions. Seperating opinions from fact will keep this thread on course and I really see no need to close it. Fred made some visual comparisons and his employees did the same. If I am not mistaken Fred's two other employees are both female so for fun I had Lori (my wife) to do the same visual test. She said she liked the looks of the Busse better but the Becker looked like it cost more. What does that proove? I guess nothing
Fred's statements were based on assumptions (his words) and visual comparisons, not hard data, Keep in mind the average consumer will, 80% of the time, buy on appearance and price. Only knifenuts, like us, will go the extra mile to find out the technical data and testing stuff.
Until the Becker's get tested, the question will remain as to their abilities. But remember the steel the Becker's use has been around the block a few times. Not to mention in similar knives and edge geometry as to what is on the current Becker line. So based on that I would say the Beckers will offer outstanding value for the dollar and they should compare quite nicely with many knives over twice their price.
You guys would absolutely drop Baby Ruths down your pants leg if you knew just how big Camillus was and who they OEM for. No offense Aubrey but I was also confused by your statement. If I am not mistaken Camillus is the largest manufacturer of knives in the US.
I don't think this thread will turn into a flame fest and it should be looked at as this. There is a new kid on the block (actually an old kid as BK&T have been here before) & people will naturally compare knives of similar characteristics and that is that.
Now when my line of Fu-Bar knives come out from Tawain; Busse, Becker, Ka-Bar and Cold Steel may as well just give up
------------------
Best Regards,
Mike Turber
BladeForums Site Owner and Administrator
Do it! Do it right! Do it right NOW!
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Cobalt
Platinum Member
- Joined
- Dec 23, 1998
- Messages
- 17,716
Fred, please continue to post. You must understand that many of us in here like hype only when it's supported by facts. You must be prepared to take some fire here and if you are right, you can say, I told you so. I like the fact that you are so high on the product, since it shows me that they are at least of very good quality. Performance is another story and this has not been proven. The Busse knives have proven themselves and you cannot expect to make a thread such as this one without receiving ground fire.
Will, I think you have a good set of designs here and apparently a great warranty. This commendable. I for one, hope the knives turn out to be great, but understand that they will get compared physically and most likely harshly to other tough knives like Busse, HI and others. Also, Fred might have been comparing apples to apples, but implied performance equality with the Basics line and that has not been proven yet. Cliff has got a Basic 7 and I'm sure that a Magnum Camp knife would be about equal in all aspects for a test. Until tests like this, all is speculation.
Fred, we all take heat in here, don't quit just because you receive a little heat. Besides, you deserved that heat for writting the threads tittle as it is.
Razor, you said; "If performance = it will do what you intend it to do, then I may be
naive, but I highly doubt the busse steel is $100 better than the camillus steel."
You don't really know now, do you. Busse Basic steel may definitely be worth $100 more than Camillus. Or it may not. You don't know this, I don't know this and no one in here knows this, but some like to make comments like you just did without knowing the facts. This is why you don't see anything wrong with what Fred wrote.
Lets say that I started a thread in the general forums stating, "Ontario Quartermaster eats the BK&T Companion for lunch", and then I go on to say that the quartermaster looks and feels better to me so it must be as good at the very least. This is nonsense, since I have not done any real world tests but just blew out a bunch of Air.
I for one like tough knives and if the BK&T lineup prooves out to be tough, I will own them. But lets reserve comparative judgements until tests are done.
Will, I think you have a good set of designs here and apparently a great warranty. This commendable. I for one, hope the knives turn out to be great, but understand that they will get compared physically and most likely harshly to other tough knives like Busse, HI and others. Also, Fred might have been comparing apples to apples, but implied performance equality with the Basics line and that has not been proven yet. Cliff has got a Basic 7 and I'm sure that a Magnum Camp knife would be about equal in all aspects for a test. Until tests like this, all is speculation.
Fred, we all take heat in here, don't quit just because you receive a little heat. Besides, you deserved that heat for writting the threads tittle as it is.
Razor, you said; "If performance = it will do what you intend it to do, then I may be
naive, but I highly doubt the busse steel is $100 better than the camillus steel."
You don't really know now, do you. Busse Basic steel may definitely be worth $100 more than Camillus. Or it may not. You don't know this, I don't know this and no one in here knows this, but some like to make comments like you just did without knowing the facts. This is why you don't see anything wrong with what Fred wrote.
Lets say that I started a thread in the general forums stating, "Ontario Quartermaster eats the BK&T Companion for lunch", and then I go on to say that the quartermaster looks and feels better to me so it must be as good at the very least. This is nonsense, since I have not done any real world tests but just blew out a bunch of Air.
I for one like tough knives and if the BK&T lineup prooves out to be tough, I will own them. But lets reserve comparative judgements until tests are done.
- Joined
- Apr 5, 2000
- Messages
- 169
First I'd like to say that for things that folks have strong opinions about (like knives) this is a very civil board. Very nice. I hope my posts are also seen as civil, if not, I apologize.
Cobalt, quite correct, I don't know the composition or performance of either steel. My only point was that, in my opinion, for what most people will do with their knives, there is no real difference other than price. The Busse may well be better steel, but in my opinion, most folks will never do anything with it to see the difference. It's like a Maserati - it's faster than most any car, but you're unlikely to ever see that on the interstate.
That's just my opinion, and just my way of deciding how to spend my dollars...
would I be proud to have a Busse knife? You bet I would! They're definitely high quality knives. I just was giving my thinking as to why I chose the campanion...
just my 2 cents...
Cobalt, quite correct, I don't know the composition or performance of either steel. My only point was that, in my opinion, for what most people will do with their knives, there is no real difference other than price. The Busse may well be better steel, but in my opinion, most folks will never do anything with it to see the difference. It's like a Maserati - it's faster than most any car, but you're unlikely to ever see that on the interstate.
That's just my opinion, and just my way of deciding how to spend my dollars...
would I be proud to have a Busse knife? You bet I would! They're definitely high quality knives. I just was giving my thinking as to why I chose the campanion...
just my 2 cents...
- Joined
- Oct 4, 1998
- Messages
- 1,597
OK folks,
I get back from some semi-serious knife testing, and this thread has gotten a little more personal than it was when I left a few hours ago. A few points first...
I have NO intention of closing this thread. Period. Everybody here is an adult and I expect them to act like one. So far we are, just mis-understanding one another, and not hearing things the same. That will be hard to fix if I close the thread. Now a few words about BK&T.
BECKER KNIFE & TOOL has been around, off and on, since 1987. It was founded by Ethan Becker, and up until now they have either produced by him, or for a few years, by BLACKJACK knives, when they were produced and marketed by BJ, for Ethan.
BK&T has a proud history. There are THOUSANDS of happy BK&T customers around the world. BK&T has a reputation of producing no nonsense, practical outdoor tools at a price that people will take them out and use them as intended. When Ethan came to CAMILLUS last year and asked us to produce and market his knives, we[CAMILLUS and Ethan] decided to make a 'good thing better'. We feel we have done so. But one thing Ethan asked, and we readily agreed to,.....no excess hype. No BS claims. No selling our products by attacking our competition. Its not Ethan's style, and its not CAMILLUS' style. Please refrain from asking Phil or myself for performance comparisons of our products and other knife companies products. You will not get them from us.
But, as welcome guest in the CAMILLUS forum, BF members are invited to discuss our knives. Fred Whitlock takes delivery of his first BK&T CAMPANIONS and is pleased with what sees. He poses the question that maybe BK&T can compete in the market with a line of knives like BUSSE that cost considerably more than BK&T[he didn't say they weren't worth what BUSSE's bring, hell they are one of the hottest knives out there, and rightly so!]. Fred simply posed that on initial impression, they compare with a line of knives that costs more than they[BK&T], and may make inroads in that market. Fred took GREAT pains to mention over and over again that he was comparing them visually and that 'all bets were off' if the BK&T knives didn't perform well. So in summation.....
Fred is talking about how knives are going to compete in the market place. Most of the rest of the members in this thread are talking about how the knives will perform in the field and the 'test lab'. Signals are crossed at this point. The 2 criteria are certainly inter-related, but from 2 different perspectives.
Everyone here is not only intitled to their opinion, the are ENCOURAGED to give it regarding our products. No opinion here is 'fiction'. Enough on this subject.
BECKER KNIFE and TOOL is proud to present to the public a line of extreme use knives and tools that we believe will meet and exceed any and all expectations of the customer. Try one, I sincerely believe you will be as happy with them as we are.
------------------
Stay Sharp!
Will Fennell
Camillus Cutlery
I get back from some semi-serious knife testing, and this thread has gotten a little more personal than it was when I left a few hours ago. A few points first...
I have NO intention of closing this thread. Period. Everybody here is an adult and I expect them to act like one. So far we are, just mis-understanding one another, and not hearing things the same. That will be hard to fix if I close the thread. Now a few words about BK&T.
BECKER KNIFE & TOOL has been around, off and on, since 1987. It was founded by Ethan Becker, and up until now they have either produced by him, or for a few years, by BLACKJACK knives, when they were produced and marketed by BJ, for Ethan.
BK&T has a proud history. There are THOUSANDS of happy BK&T customers around the world. BK&T has a reputation of producing no nonsense, practical outdoor tools at a price that people will take them out and use them as intended. When Ethan came to CAMILLUS last year and asked us to produce and market his knives, we[CAMILLUS and Ethan] decided to make a 'good thing better'. We feel we have done so. But one thing Ethan asked, and we readily agreed to,.....no excess hype. No BS claims. No selling our products by attacking our competition. Its not Ethan's style, and its not CAMILLUS' style. Please refrain from asking Phil or myself for performance comparisons of our products and other knife companies products. You will not get them from us.
But, as welcome guest in the CAMILLUS forum, BF members are invited to discuss our knives. Fred Whitlock takes delivery of his first BK&T CAMPANIONS and is pleased with what sees. He poses the question that maybe BK&T can compete in the market with a line of knives like BUSSE that cost considerably more than BK&T[he didn't say they weren't worth what BUSSE's bring, hell they are one of the hottest knives out there, and rightly so!]. Fred simply posed that on initial impression, they compare with a line of knives that costs more than they[BK&T], and may make inroads in that market. Fred took GREAT pains to mention over and over again that he was comparing them visually and that 'all bets were off' if the BK&T knives didn't perform well. So in summation.....
Fred is talking about how knives are going to compete in the market place. Most of the rest of the members in this thread are talking about how the knives will perform in the field and the 'test lab'. Signals are crossed at this point. The 2 criteria are certainly inter-related, but from 2 different perspectives.
Everyone here is not only intitled to their opinion, the are ENCOURAGED to give it regarding our products. No opinion here is 'fiction'. Enough on this subject.
BECKER KNIFE and TOOL is proud to present to the public a line of extreme use knives and tools that we believe will meet and exceed any and all expectations of the customer. Try one, I sincerely believe you will be as happy with them as we are.
------------------
Stay Sharp!
Will Fennell
Camillus Cutlery
- Joined
- Oct 4, 1998
- Messages
- 1,597
Almost forgot,
That semi-serious knife testing this afternoon.....
Part of the ABS competition is from what I understand is cutting a soda can, filled with water, in half with a single stroke, and leaving the bottom of the can still sitting on the 'stump'. I heard about this from Larry Harley who won a years or so ago.
Well, somebody brought this up today, and I have been outside swinging at soda cans. The BK&T MAGNUM CAMP prototype will cut it cleanly in half, but my technique is not quite good enough to leave it sitting on the stump. But I'm improving! Thank god summer is coming because you get soaking wet doing this
Cliff,
The MAGNUM CAMP KNIFE does have a nice high flat grind, but it is a much thinner blade that your BATTLE MISTRESS. Jerry Fisk designed it as a super slicer, nice and thin at .188" blade stock. Kinda industrial strenght, turbo charged kitchen knife. Cuts like crazy.
Probally more similar to your BM would be the BRUTE, 9.5" blade out of .250" stock. It has a recurved blade, but not 'bent' like a khukri. I think you would like it. Its a hell-for-stout chopper.
Talk to ya'll later....I'm heading to the woods to turkey hunt tomorrow.
------------------
Stay Sharp!
Will Fennell
Camillus Cutlery
That semi-serious knife testing this afternoon.....
Part of the ABS competition is from what I understand is cutting a soda can, filled with water, in half with a single stroke, and leaving the bottom of the can still sitting on the 'stump'. I heard about this from Larry Harley who won a years or so ago.
Well, somebody brought this up today, and I have been outside swinging at soda cans. The BK&T MAGNUM CAMP prototype will cut it cleanly in half, but my technique is not quite good enough to leave it sitting on the stump. But I'm improving! Thank god summer is coming because you get soaking wet doing this
Cliff,
The MAGNUM CAMP KNIFE does have a nice high flat grind, but it is a much thinner blade that your BATTLE MISTRESS. Jerry Fisk designed it as a super slicer, nice and thin at .188" blade stock. Kinda industrial strenght, turbo charged kitchen knife. Cuts like crazy.
Probally more similar to your BM would be the BRUTE, 9.5" blade out of .250" stock. It has a recurved blade, but not 'bent' like a khukri. I think you would like it. Its a hell-for-stout chopper.
Talk to ya'll later....I'm heading to the woods to turkey hunt tomorrow.
------------------
Stay Sharp!
Will Fennell
Camillus Cutlery
- Joined
- Oct 2, 1998
- Messages
- 5,461
I would attempt that test with my new line of Fu-Bar knives, but they are so damn sharp that insted of just splitting a can they may actually split an atom and create a nuclear catastrophe!
------------------
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Mike Turber
BladeForums Site Owner and Administrator
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------------------
Best Regards,
Mike Turber
BladeForums Site Owner and Administrator
Do it! Do it right! Do it right NOW!
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Rob Simonich
Big Bear
- Joined
- Oct 3, 1998
- Messages
- 2,294
Hi guys, I have a very few simple words to post on this. Having handled the BK&T knives at the SHOT Show, and spending quite a lot of time talking to Ethan Becker, Will Fennell, Wallace Fennell, Jim Furgal and Phil Gibbs and others about these knives, as well as my own good experiances with Camillus, I have to sat the Beckers are one of the best values for knives in this class. They are using proven materials and making them right. Well worth the buck. Nuf said.
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www.simonichknives.com
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www.simonichknives.com
Jerry Busse
Moderator
- Joined
- Aug 20, 1999
- Messages
- 11,982
Hello to all on the Camillus forum. Let me start by saying that anytime an American knife company, like Camillus, produces an excellent product, like the BK&Ts are reported to be, it will only reflect well on those of us who have chosen to manufacture our products here in the United States. We welcome the BK&T line back to the market and give a hardy thumbs-up to Camilluss latest project. This effort only reinforces that an American nameplate is a sure sign of quality and performance.
Competition is a funny thing and it is viewed differently by everyone. When you are revered as the leader in a particular field you can expect comparisons to be made. How the comparisons are made and with what level of class, objectivity, and accuracy they are made will most certainly depend on those in charge of the adjudication. Most of you are aware that we have been the subject of quite a few of these comparative analyses. It is a compliment to our product line and its hard-earned, high performance reputation that we have, seemingly, become the standard by which others are judged whenever toughness and/or performance is the criteria.
At Busse Combat we only view ourselves as competition. We continue to make major improvements on our product line when there is no marketing need to do so. The high demand for our knives has created a backorder that is several months long. In spite of this, we have just undergone a major redesign of our two most popular models, the Steel Heart and Battle Mistress. Why? Because we knew we could make our knives perform even better. We didnt need to. . . we had to. Its that whole pride thing.
As far as knife performance is concerned, we enjoy a unique position in the market place. We have not only published the performance levels that our knives are capable of reaching but have backed these claims up with videotaped documentation and live demonstrations. We have repeated many of these performance tests at major shows and conventions throughout the country and have always greatly surpassed our published claims. We are the only company, that I am aware of, who is willing to duplicate these tests and prove their performance claims in front of live audiences. Our performance claims have, likewise, been duplicated and verified by numerous experts in the field who often report much higher levels of performance than we have claimed.
The fact that Camillus has brought the BK&T line to the table is a compliment to their ongoing quest to outdo themselves and exhibits the pride that is alive and well in the American cutlery industry. Judging from what my friend Will Fennell has written, it appears as though Camillus has their sights set on a high quality, high performance, highly affordable line of knives that can only benefit the consumer. We wish them all the best.
Respectfully Yours,
Jerry Busse
Busse Combat Knife Co.
Competition is a funny thing and it is viewed differently by everyone. When you are revered as the leader in a particular field you can expect comparisons to be made. How the comparisons are made and with what level of class, objectivity, and accuracy they are made will most certainly depend on those in charge of the adjudication. Most of you are aware that we have been the subject of quite a few of these comparative analyses. It is a compliment to our product line and its hard-earned, high performance reputation that we have, seemingly, become the standard by which others are judged whenever toughness and/or performance is the criteria.
At Busse Combat we only view ourselves as competition. We continue to make major improvements on our product line when there is no marketing need to do so. The high demand for our knives has created a backorder that is several months long. In spite of this, we have just undergone a major redesign of our two most popular models, the Steel Heart and Battle Mistress. Why? Because we knew we could make our knives perform even better. We didnt need to. . . we had to. Its that whole pride thing.
As far as knife performance is concerned, we enjoy a unique position in the market place. We have not only published the performance levels that our knives are capable of reaching but have backed these claims up with videotaped documentation and live demonstrations. We have repeated many of these performance tests at major shows and conventions throughout the country and have always greatly surpassed our published claims. We are the only company, that I am aware of, who is willing to duplicate these tests and prove their performance claims in front of live audiences. Our performance claims have, likewise, been duplicated and verified by numerous experts in the field who often report much higher levels of performance than we have claimed.
The fact that Camillus has brought the BK&T line to the table is a compliment to their ongoing quest to outdo themselves and exhibits the pride that is alive and well in the American cutlery industry. Judging from what my friend Will Fennell has written, it appears as though Camillus has their sights set on a high quality, high performance, highly affordable line of knives that can only benefit the consumer. We wish them all the best.
Respectfully Yours,
Jerry Busse
Busse Combat Knife Co.
Cobalt
Platinum Member
- Joined
- Dec 23, 1998
- Messages
- 17,716
This thread should have been called, "Respectfull Discussions", since it is by far one of the most polite and respectfull threads in a while. Everyone got their points across without lambasting the others. Jerry as usual is a class act and Will, you obviously are also.
I'll say this much, I'll order a Brute on faith alone, Will & Fred. Let me know when they are available if possible, by email and I will order one. A good warranty goes a long ways, it shows your faith in your product.
I'll say this much, I'll order a Brute on faith alone, Will & Fred. Let me know when they are available if possible, by email and I will order one. A good warranty goes a long ways, it shows your faith in your product.
- Joined
- Jan 4, 1999
- Messages
- 3,000
OK, my last word in this thread. I agree that my choice of titles was poor. I was impressed with the value obviously inherent in the Campanion. I thought I was careful enough in reiterating what I was comparing and that I made no performance claims. I was upset that people quoted parts of my post to attack it without being willing to quote the other parts of the post. I guess I know how politicians feel about the press.
I don't retract my statements because they were simply an expression of opinion. I stand by what I said but apologize for creating an "issue" by comparing the two products directly and for the poor choice of titles. That won't ever happen again from me.
Nor was I criticizing the Busse product. We've sold them successfully and never had a complaint or a return - ever. I think the Becker is a better value as I said and I think the same thing about a lot of other competing products. I'll keep those comparisons to myself in the future. It doesn't help anybody as I now see.
Ah well. At least it was a little controversial and made for some interesting reading huh? Back to the emails. Take care.
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Fred
Knife Outlet
http://www.knifeoutlet.com
I don't retract my statements because they were simply an expression of opinion. I stand by what I said but apologize for creating an "issue" by comparing the two products directly and for the poor choice of titles. That won't ever happen again from me.
Nor was I criticizing the Busse product. We've sold them successfully and never had a complaint or a return - ever. I think the Becker is a better value as I said and I think the same thing about a lot of other competing products. I'll keep those comparisons to myself in the future. It doesn't help anybody as I now see.
Ah well. At least it was a little controversial and made for some interesting reading huh? Back to the emails. Take care.
------------------
Fred
Knife Outlet
http://www.knifeoutlet.com
- Joined
- Oct 2, 1998
- Messages
- 5,461
Now we return you to your regular scheduled programming.
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Mike Turber
BladeForums Site Owner and Administrator
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------------------
Best Regards,
Mike Turber
BladeForums Site Owner and Administrator
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Cliff Stamp
BANNED
- Joined
- Oct 5, 1998
- Messages
- 17,562
Will, thanks for the clarification, the Brute it is.
-Cliff
-Cliff
Will and Jerry: You guys are great..... you can handle the whistle on our playground any time.
In case any are still wondering..... run FUBAR at www.websters.com
In case any are still wondering..... run FUBAR at www.websters.com
Fred, I kinda figured your topic title would get you flamed but I was surprised at how long it took for the tinder to catch fire.
I just got my Companion yesterday and it is a wonderful knife. Don't have a Busse to compare it to and I don't really care. I'd still like to get a Busse 'cause I just like them. But I will have to save my pennies for awhile yet. Pricewise, the Becker line is be hard to beat.
There is some similarity in the Busse line and the Becker line in terms of design but there are also a lot of differences. The steel is different, the handle materials are different, the way the handles are attached are different, the style of the handles are different etc., etc. To be honest, I don't think the Becker line will kill the Busse line anymore than the Fallkniven or Cold Steel line did. But I agree with Fred that pricewise, there seems to be a lot of bang for the buck with the Becker line. It's just more good knives coming down the road, generating more interest in knives in more people and that has to be good for everyone, doesn't it?
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Hoodoo
The low, hoarse purr of the whirling stonethe light-pressd blade,
Diffusing, dropping, sideways-darting, in tiny showers of gold,
Sparkles from the wheel.
Walt Whitman
I just got my Companion yesterday and it is a wonderful knife. Don't have a Busse to compare it to and I don't really care. I'd still like to get a Busse 'cause I just like them. But I will have to save my pennies for awhile yet. Pricewise, the Becker line is be hard to beat.
There is some similarity in the Busse line and the Becker line in terms of design but there are also a lot of differences. The steel is different, the handle materials are different, the way the handles are attached are different, the style of the handles are different etc., etc. To be honest, I don't think the Becker line will kill the Busse line anymore than the Fallkniven or Cold Steel line did. But I agree with Fred that pricewise, there seems to be a lot of bang for the buck with the Becker line. It's just more good knives coming down the road, generating more interest in knives in more people and that has to be good for everyone, doesn't it?
------------------
Hoodoo
The low, hoarse purr of the whirling stonethe light-pressd blade,
Diffusing, dropping, sideways-darting, in tiny showers of gold,
Sparkles from the wheel.
Walt Whitman
- Joined
- Oct 4, 1998
- Messages
- 1,597
This Thread just keeps going everytime I leave the Computer!
Jerry, glad you came by, your welcome anytime. First Beer is on me at BLADESHOW!
Fred, you KNOW your welcome here anytime....don't even think about not posting here.
And that goes for the rest of you guys.<G>
....and the Turkey hunting was a wash today, literally. It rained like hell
Talk to everybody soon.....its late.
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Stay Sharp!
Will Fennell
Camillus Cutlery
Jerry, glad you came by, your welcome anytime. First Beer is on me at BLADESHOW!
Fred, you KNOW your welcome here anytime....don't even think about not posting here.
And that goes for the rest of you guys.<G>
....and the Turkey hunting was a wash today, literally. It rained like hell
Talk to everybody soon.....its late.
------------------
Stay Sharp!
Will Fennell
Camillus Cutlery
First off, I would like to say that Fred absolutely has a right to state his opinion. He did not say anything derogatory about Busse Knives nor do I think that his intention was to start a "mine is better than your's" war. Fred just stated that he thought the Becker was a good value and nice looking to boot.
Jerry,
I would like to also commend you for your comments on this matter. You are well aware that other companies compare themselves to you and as far as I am concerned, that is a good thing. It means that your knives are at a level that others strive to be at. And to welcome testing of other companies knives against your's, just shows that you will stand behind your products (along with your warranty).
I have had several Busse Basics and have used and abused a Basic 5 with no problems whatsoever. Will the BK&T knives stand up to hard use? Who knows, but it appears that the right intentions are there. We will have to wait and see.
Will,
I do have one question for you. You state that if someone should happen to break one of your knives, that it will be repaired or replaced. Am I to understand that if someone were to take a knife for testing purposes and put it in a vise or bury the tip in a log and flex the knife, to see how far it will go before breaking, and it does indeed break, that you will replace that knife? I for one will be very happy to abuse the hell out of one of your knives to see just how much it can take as long as I know I can get a replacement in the event that it does break.
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C.O.'s-"It takes balls to work behind the walls "
Jerry,
I would like to also commend you for your comments on this matter. You are well aware that other companies compare themselves to you and as far as I am concerned, that is a good thing. It means that your knives are at a level that others strive to be at. And to welcome testing of other companies knives against your's, just shows that you will stand behind your products (along with your warranty).
I have had several Busse Basics and have used and abused a Basic 5 with no problems whatsoever. Will the BK&T knives stand up to hard use? Who knows, but it appears that the right intentions are there. We will have to wait and see.
Will,
I do have one question for you. You state that if someone should happen to break one of your knives, that it will be repaired or replaced. Am I to understand that if someone were to take a knife for testing purposes and put it in a vise or bury the tip in a log and flex the knife, to see how far it will go before breaking, and it does indeed break, that you will replace that knife? I for one will be very happy to abuse the hell out of one of your knives to see just how much it can take as long as I know I can get a replacement in the event that it does break.
------------------
C.O.'s-"It takes balls to work behind the walls "
- Joined
- Oct 4, 1998
- Messages
- 193
Jailhack
Let me see if I under stand you correctly with your question to Will. If Camillus is willing to suffer the expense you will intentionally misuse their product and there by break it. If they wont pay for such nonsense you would be inclined to use the knife as designed, for the purposes that it is intended, and then judge its performance on those merits ? Hum Sounds to me like you have your hand out. Wouldnt we all like a free-be? Or maybe your question was sarcastic to make a point. Im not sure.
It takes no special skill or brainpower to intentionally destroy any item, no matter how tough, if that is what you set out to do. Like you, or any other, I can destroy any knife whether a Becker, Busse, Mad Dog, or whatever. There is no trick to it. Testing for failure may have merit in finding how far out side the parameters an item will go but the end result is assured from the beginning. Item destroyed. Why would anyone expect any manufacture to replace an item after such a no brainer? All that would be necessary to keep in a constant supply of bright new shinny knives is to break the last, intentionally, after one use and send it back for another. Not a very ethical scenario is it; and how long could any company stay in business with such a policy? Kind of like double your money back , no questions asked
The real trick is testing conducted within the performance envelop of what the item is designed for. Does it do what it is supposed to and how well does it do it?
Camillus is a great company with a long record of superb customer loyalty. You dont last 120+ years in this business if you dont take care of customers. Will Fennell has likewise demonstrated he is willing to go the extra mile. Customer loyalty IS standing behind your products; but it is also exercising prudent business practices insuring that your company will be around next year continuing to serve those same customers.
Im reminded of the movie Tommy Boy where they are trying to make a sale and the customer is reluctant to purchase the product because there is no guarantee on the box. To this Tommy replies anyone can take a dump in a box and slap a guarantee on it but what do you have? Ill tell you what you have a guaranteed piece of crap . The point was; its not whats on the box that matters but rather whats inside.
Let me see if I under stand you correctly with your question to Will. If Camillus is willing to suffer the expense you will intentionally misuse their product and there by break it. If they wont pay for such nonsense you would be inclined to use the knife as designed, for the purposes that it is intended, and then judge its performance on those merits ? Hum Sounds to me like you have your hand out. Wouldnt we all like a free-be? Or maybe your question was sarcastic to make a point. Im not sure.
It takes no special skill or brainpower to intentionally destroy any item, no matter how tough, if that is what you set out to do. Like you, or any other, I can destroy any knife whether a Becker, Busse, Mad Dog, or whatever. There is no trick to it. Testing for failure may have merit in finding how far out side the parameters an item will go but the end result is assured from the beginning. Item destroyed. Why would anyone expect any manufacture to replace an item after such a no brainer? All that would be necessary to keep in a constant supply of bright new shinny knives is to break the last, intentionally, after one use and send it back for another. Not a very ethical scenario is it; and how long could any company stay in business with such a policy? Kind of like double your money back , no questions asked
The real trick is testing conducted within the performance envelop of what the item is designed for. Does it do what it is supposed to and how well does it do it?
Camillus is a great company with a long record of superb customer loyalty. You dont last 120+ years in this business if you dont take care of customers. Will Fennell has likewise demonstrated he is willing to go the extra mile. Customer loyalty IS standing behind your products; but it is also exercising prudent business practices insuring that your company will be around next year continuing to serve those same customers.
Im reminded of the movie Tommy Boy where they are trying to make a sale and the customer is reluctant to purchase the product because there is no guarantee on the box. To this Tommy replies anyone can take a dump in a box and slap a guarantee on it but what do you have? Ill tell you what you have a guaranteed piece of crap . The point was; its not whats on the box that matters but rather whats inside.