Becker Patrol Machete or Ontario RTAK

T

tobym

Joined
Dec 27, 2001
Messages
17
im looking at either the becker patrol machete or the upcoming ontario RTAK for my next knife. my usage would be a combination of bushwhacking through vegetation that ranges from grass to heavy branches and camp chores in wilderness areas. plus it will serve as a survival knife if the need arises as well.

any comparisons anyone can offer on these knives? of course the comparison would probably have to be with a livesay RTAK.
 
Any pictures of the Ontario RTAK online? I did a few net searches but didn't turn up anything.

-Cliff
 
I handled a couple prototypes of the Ontario RTAK and I own a Patrol Machete.

The steel on the RTAK seemed thicker than that on my Patrol, but I don't know whether that is true or simply my impression. The deep RTAK blade had a very solid/substantial feel, but it is also a bit heavy. The RTAK grip was very comfortable and seemed hell-for-strong.

If I were cutting light vegetation, I think that the longer blade and lighter feel of the Patrol would give it the advantage. However, the RTAK would most likely do a better job of chopping thicker branches, splitting, etc. Probably also a better general purpose camp knife. I expect it is also significantly more expensive.

Based on your description, I'd probably go for the RTAK if I could afford it. However, the Patrol would also do a credible job for lower bucks.
 
cliff,

here's the URL: http://www.jungletraining.com/rtak.htm

jeff randall described it as such:
"A little over 10" of edge length. 2 inch width. 3/16" thickness. Full flat grind. Phosphate finish (same as M16). Linen Micarta handle slabs. 1095 steel. 56-58 Rc hardness. Ambidextrous cordura sheath with goodies pocket sewn in. Suggested retail price of 89.95 Available through major Ontario dealers in about 90 days or so. "
 
Originally posted by DancesWithKnives
Looks like my guess about the higher price was dead wrong.
Click to expand...
Maybe not. Top of Texas has the PM for $62. That's a lot less than the $89 quoted above, though you don't know what the RTAK will actually sell for 'till they're available.

Also note the blade thickness is the same. The RTAK's heftier feel may come from the extra width, where the PM has that nice recurve.

-- PG
 
Well, I have a PM although I have never really used it. I know it's supposed to work well as a machete and as a semi-heavy duty chopper... Well, I have a hard time using an $80 machete, especially when I have an Ontario machete that is wonderful and it only cost me about $17. I also have numerous "heavy duty choppers" that are well broken in and abused, so why mess up a brand new $80 blade? I guess if you don't have a machete and/or a heavy duty chopping blade, this would be a good knife to have as it fits both tasks. I must add that I do not like the stock sheath that comes with the PM. Thinking about the sheaths that come with the other BK&T knives compared to this one, it is kind of hard to justify spending that much $$$ for a machete. But if it does heavy duty work as well, it "may" be justified... but if I was going to use it I would get a custom 3rd party kydex rig made for it. One plus I personally see for the PM is its use as a short sword. If you do any FMA knife & stick work (which I have gotten into lately) this is a good no frills short blade. It's tough, can take a beating, has a great ergonomic handle and also has all the utilitarian purposes as well. But as a short sword it could stand to be a few inches longer and have a better guard. Needs a better sheath, too... did I mention that?
I have never handled an RTAK, neither Livesay nor Ontario. Judging from the pics I have a REALLY hard time justifying the price of this puppy. You can basically get a 12" Ontario machete for $15 (which is the best bang for buck value on ANY knife BAR NONE. This thing will do it all and you can even get one with a sawback spine.) that will do everything this thing can. I have a multitude of "heavy chopper" blades (many that I don't even use) and the small Ontario machete is hard to beat considering the $$$$$.

Just my opinions-
Cam
 
That page by Randall has a slant towards serious misinformation. When I opened it I thought that it was just the Livesay RTAK page, however there is a picture of the Ontario version right in the review and the text doesn't point out the the RTAK it refers to was made by Livesay.

In regards to how it should compare to a regular machete like the Ontario, if you ignore the length issue (10" vs 12"), the RTAK should be a directly better blade, if it isn't then the edge is horribly misground and you can fix that anyway. This assumes the balance on the RTAK is similar. If it is far more blade heavy then you will fatigue faster on light work, and if it is far more neutral you will fatigue far faster on heavy wood work. The latter would make little sense considering the overall design. I would assume it is at least as blade heavy as an Ontario 12", maybe even a little more.

The reason that traditional machetes are made the way they are, is not because of the great performance it produces but simply because you can make them cheap that way - it is the worst way to grind a knife. You stamp out the profile from sheet stock, heat treat, and grind an edge - done. However with a blade with an actual primary grind you have to do much more work in making the basic shape, have to buy more material to begin with, and the heat treat is much more critical as uneven grinding can cause warping. Plus you now have to worry about finish as you probably don't want to leave it at the shaping belt fniish - 80 grit or so.

As for performance, while a full ground 3/16" blade is thicker at the spine than a 1/8" stamped machete, the edge on the full ground blade (like the Patrol Machete) will be much thinner than the edge on the cheap machete, and this is where the cutting ability comes from. For example while the blade on a traditional flat machete is 1/8" right behind the edge, on the Patrol Machete it is between 0.02" - 0.03" if I remember Will correctly. If both are ground at equal angles there will be no contest in regards to cutting ability. Plus the Patrol machete will have better action on light woody vegetation because of the hooking action, and will bind less in heavier woods because of the primary v-grind, and in fact will be stronger overall because of the increased spine thickness. Similar balance considerations as noted in the above.

The increased cost of the Patrol Machete also reflects the higher quality control of Camillus vs Ontario (I would expect anyway). The Ontario RTAK seems high in cost compared to the other Ontario knives of similar design and steel, depending on how much it gets discounted, this however just reflects having a "named" designer which always tends to bump up the price. The RTAK is a really nice basic design, it would have been nice to see Camillus produce it instead of Ontario as my experience with a handfull of their products is that the QC is horrible.

In regards to the RTAK vs the Patrol Machete, I have a PM coming and I have used blades similar to the RTAK. I would predict the performance to go pretty much exactly as DWK noted.

-Cliff
 
Hands down the Becker Patrol machete is the best machete on the market and well worth the price. Matter of fact anything Becker has his name on is first rate.

Senor Cliff, I added a line to our web site so as not to confuse the head strong absolutely objective experts like yourself. Basically what I'm saying is our information is accurate. If we were to take your "logic" then no two RTAKs produced by a custom maker would be exactly the same since hand built blades will all have minor differences, thus any review would ONLY be good for the particular knife that was reviewed.

We have never "slanted" or misinformed anyone when it comes to our work. We have built our name on integrity and I resent the remark you made. Yes, I have followed your "objective" reviews and I have to wonder how much real world experience you have with a machete outside your home turf. I guess what I'm saying Cliff is you can kiss our skinny white asses. Never accuse me of slanting or misinforming any damn person based on your bullshit objective reviews.

Have a good day.
 
A production version of a custom made blade is hardly the same thing as the custom blade from the maker. If I had not read the webpage before, I would have assumed the text refered to the Ontario RTAK which it doesn't, it applies to the Livesay RTAK. That is misrepresenting the product.

-Cliff
 
Ok Cliff, in your infinite wisdom tell me what the differences are going to be between the Livesay custom RTAK and the Ontario production RTAK. Not what you "think" they are going to be, but what they are actually going to be.
 
... if you pound it into a rotten Peruvian stump with a sledge hammer then put a pipe on the handle you can only bend it to 60 degrees before the blade pops back true. But that's just a guess ;)
 
Cliff you are right on- a production version of a handmade is not the same as the handmade. I've never been impressed with the quality of Ontarios. I would go with the Becker.
 
You might be right Rob but I have some SAS guys that are willing to kick your scrawny ass if you can't outdrink them :D

Good seeing you too amigo. SHOT was good this year.
 
tobym-
I am assuming (and we all know what THAT leads to...) that you want this knife to be an exclusive
"banger" (meaning it will get lots of use) and that you don't wish to allocate a lot of resources toward knife buying, hence the "one knife" only deal. Like many, I am a collector as well as a user and I will more than likely get an Ontario RTAK when they are readily available, though I may never use it. I probably will though, just to see what all the fuss is about. I, unlike many, LOVE Ontario products regardless of the fit and finish and I have never had any that the QC was so bad on that it was beyond fixing, especially nothing that was structurally deficient. If I like the Ontario RTAK I may just order a Livesay version. I have a WASP on order form him now (or at least my girlfriend tells me... it was supposed to be here for Christmas but has been backordered...). If you want something that is going to work well as a machete and do some heavy duty chopping the PM may be your best bet.
I am a big fan of heavy duty choppers and have quite a handful of many various models and have also compared quite a few. I don't really have much occasion to do work on light vegetation so I can't really speak there.

Cliff-
I guess the v grind is what makes the Cold Steel ATC the brute that it is. Do you have any experience with these at all? IMHO it is the best design I have ever come across for heavy duty chopping. They are discontinued... had problems with the handles I heard. I have one that Jay Maines put a custom handle on for me and MAN that mutha will lay waste to some real estate.
It seems like the v grind would bind badly because of the thinness of the blade at the edge considering that thin blades tend to bind more. Why is it that the v grind does not bind as bad as say, a thin saber grind?

Thanks-
Cam
 
thanks for the advice.

actually ive figured that my main use will be for clearing a wide range of vegetation from grass to heavy branches and moderate chopping as the main camp tasks. anything else can be done with a smaller folder or fixed blade.

im going for the PM... for now.
 
Hey Jeff, help me out here. How can you enthusiatically endorse the Becker PM over the Ontario RTAK, then in the same thread get accused of hyping the Ontario RTAK? Did I miss something? I'm confused...! :)
 
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