Recommendation? Beginner with no power tools

O

Okie405

Joined
Sep 29, 2017
Messages
104
Hello,
My first post is a request for a reccomendation. I did searches but couldn't find "exactly" what I'm looking for, so I'm gonna ask the question that every rookie asks that makes the salty guys shake thier heads, but I'm gonna do it correctly. I think.

Me and my teenage son are going to make our first knives here soon. We have our files, our hacksaw's, our hacksaw blades, our drill and angle grinder (only 2 power tools), our clamps, bench vise, assorted grit sand papers and about 100 hours of you tube knife making videos.

I am looking for a knife steel that is good for getting really sharp for skinning deer. If there is a steel that will stay sharp for the whole process of taking all the hide off a deer and cutting him all up ... and not have to stop repeatedly to resharpen that is the steel for me. Lots of cutting meat with cutting around bone and through ligaments and muscle and staying sharp for at least a full deer, although 2 would be amazing. Don't care if it's shiny or pretty. Don't care if it will get rusty if I leave it wet, not a chance of that since I take care of my tools and that's what this will be. I would prefer to heat treat it myself if the process is somewhat easy, but if not I'm not opposed to sending it off. What steel am I looking for?

My son on the other hand is going to make himself a chopper. He needs a knife steel that can hold a good sharp edge chopping through deer hip bones, backbones, small scrub oak limbs and other stuff out in the woods. Rust resistance is probably a good idea but he is actually pretty good about taking care of his stuff too. What Steel is he looking for?

Having been reading for awhile now and I think 01 tool steel would be good for me? What do you think? Is there something that would be better for me?

I've got no idea what kind of steel for my son but I see lots of choppers made out of truck leaf springs on you tube. What steel is that and is it a good for his application?

Keep in mind we are both using hand tools to make these knives. Thank you in advance for any assistance.
 
Try posting in the knife makers subforum. You will have better answers. Finding a knife to work through a few deer is as simple as an original schrade sharpfinger. And a chopper is as simple as...there are no simple answeres haha. Ask a mod to move the post and keep us posted with what you come up with.
 
Edge retention depends on the heat treat more than the particular steel itself, so keep that in mind.

2 steels that are known to be extremely easy to heat treat as well as great for first knives are 01 tool steel, and 1095 high carbon.
While I don't know about 01, 1095 has been used on hunting knives for forever and is also used on machetes as well as big chopping / camp type knives.

I would recommend 1095 for both because of it's low cost, relatively easy heat treating, and it's toughness.
It won't really hold an edge forever, but it is good at taking blows without chipping and if you got the heat treat right I don't see why it wouldn't stay sharp long enough to get through a deer.

Btw stainless steels aren't really ideal for making a first knife out of , so if rust resistance is important you could send the knife to get it coated in something like duracoat, ceracoat, an epoxy paint ( my machetes came with some kind of epoxy paint coating on them and It's some tough stuff ) or even just cold blue the blades and keep them oiled.
 
For both knives, I would actually suggest the same alloy, 1084.

If you temper the alloy at 420°-425° for three cycles, you should have an ample toughness.

If you temper it two or thee cycles at 410° you should retain enough hardness to keep the edge (or close to it) that you are looking for.

How hard are you on contact with bone?
 
Hickory n steel said:
1095 has been used on hunting knives for forever and is also used on machetes as well as big chopping / camp type knives.

I would recommend 1095 for both because of it's low cost, relatively easy heat treating, and it's toughness.
It won't really hold an edge forever, but it is good at taking blows without chipping and if you got the heat treat right I don't see why it wouldn't stay sharp long enough to get through a deer.
Click to expand...

I've been killing deer for about 30 years now and in that time I have went through a whole bunch of big box store purchased knives. Schrade, Kershaw, Gerber, Buck and some others I am probably forgetting. Not a one of them can make it even a quarter way through a deer without needing to be resharpened. In fact when I start in on a deer I have 3 knives that I use just so I don't have to stop and resharpen. My uncle has a custom made knife that he has had for about 50 years, that he got from his dad who carried it back in his younger days before that. It's old and beat up and the blade is almost black and if he don't oil it right after using it, it begins to rust. No idea who made it, but it can get through a full deer and then even sectioning up the meat. About then it needs to be resharpened. I am telling all this because there seems to me to be some kind of lack of quality in the production of modern knives when compared to a custom knife made around the 1930's, at least compared to that old knife of my uncle's and I just want to make sure that the modern big box store knives listed above do not use 1095? So my question would be; is 1095 used in modern big box store sold knives like those listed above?


NJBillK said:
For both knives, I would actually suggest the same alloy, 1084.

If you temper the alloy at 420°-425° for three cycles, you should have an ample toughness.

If you temper it two or thee cycles at 410° you should retain enough hardness to keep the edge (or close to it) that you are looking for.

How hard are you on contact with bone?
Click to expand...

When I separate the joints on the back legs from the hips I use a small hatchet so no knife contact there. the most bone contact comes when removing the back straps and there is quiet allot of bone contact with the spine. there is no way around that as you are trying to get every single piece of meat you can since this is the best part on a deer. You are literally raking down along the spine and over the tops of the ribs where they connect to the spine. I do this last as this is the part that usually ends that knife and means a move to another knife. I don;t go after the neck meat, its too much work for too tough of meat, not worth it. The rest of the deer is an occasional nick against a bone, nothing major.

1095, 1084 and 01-Tool those are the recommendations so far.
 
O Okie405
Two Big questions that have yet to be answered.

Are you planning on heat treating these knives at home?
If so, how do you plan to do so?
 
I prefer to heat treat myself. I am ordering this as soon as it is ready for order: http://mathewsonmetals.com/shop/ite...GKZZ9SjTL9bGRsl2sIIPZjMV27lQulPRoCU8UQAvD_BwE

I am not opposed to sending it off though if doing so would get me to a better steel.

I just now ordered the following steels: 01, 1095, 1084 and A2 with next day shipping on all so me and the kid can get started Sunday. Ordered a couple different types so we can make a knife from each and see what we like better. 3/16 thick, 2.5" width 36" length.
 
Well, all of those steels require some time held "at temperature" to get the best performance from the alloy, except for 1084.

Without the ability to accurately control your temperature for an extended amount of time, you would probably see the best initial results with 1084, though with practice you can probably eek a bit more performance out of an O1 blade with a backyard HT.

Most would agree that the best alloy for a "backyard HT" would be 1084, when the correct steps are followed:
- rough grinding to shape
- Bevels cut in and secondaries brought down to .030, this will help keep the blade from warping
- thermal cycle for normalization of any stresses imparted during grinding
- bring to just over non-magnetic (one shade brighter)
- with oil pre-heated to 120°-130°, dunk the blade in the oil to quench, if temp is lower than this, you risk a gas jacket that will not cool the alloy at a sufficient rate and the blade will not harden correctly/fully
- move the blade vertically and from edge to spine, not from side to side, this can induce warping
- check with file to see if it hardened, you will have a layer of decarb, (where the carbon has burned out of the steel) this has to be filed through to get to "good steel", this is the hardened core
- temper immediately at 410°-415°, at least twice, though a third time is preferred (one hour each)
- disposable aluminum baking sheets can be bent to make a heat shield, this will stop your blades from overheating during temper.
- disposable aluminum baking trays can also be bent to an "L" shape and laid flat with the short side up, vertical cuts can be made into this to make an impromptu stand for your knives
- Stand your blades edge up or down with the heat shield over the top, you want indirect heat.
- use a digital meat thermometer to keep the temp as close to your target range as possible.
- Fill the drip tray with crushed dry brick, fire brick, sand, or anything else similar and dense to act as a heat sink to help stabilize the temperature.
- practice running the oven and holding temp for an hour a few times to get it dialed in (pun not intended).
- your knives must be smaller than the interior of the toaster oven for tempering.
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Due to this, I would suggest making your own knives, but sending ten out for heat treat. But, if you wish to do so, best of luck and feel free to ask any questions that crop up.
 
what on earth are you doing to these deer that you need three knives! :D
I am joking, partially - i have a couple of buck knives (paclite skinner and diamondback i think) they are 420HC steel- that i use hunting. i have no problems getting through a whole deer with either of them. Buck has the HT on the 420HC worked out - on occassion that we have multiple deer to process, sometimes I'll need to hit it on a steel or coffee cup - but never a full sharpen.

I'm a little ahead of you, in that i have a 1095 knife already underway to be my new hunter - its been shaped and treated, and now just needs a handle and sharpened.
 
Also, an inexpensive port-a-band from harbor freight will be Very helpful in cutting out your knives. It will be much easier and a bit faster than the angle grinder and cut off wheels.
 
Like everything in life...go slow and look ahead.

You're going to get impatient filing and sanding, it happens. Best piece of advice would be don't forget to clean your file, last thing you want is deep scratches that take forever to get out.

Lastly have fun and enjoy your time with your son.
 
If you are heat treating yourself, 1084 is what ya want. If you are sending it out for heat treat use the A2. A2 heat treated correctly and with decent knife design, grinding, geometry etc will process multiple animals with out re sharpening, if you know what you are doing. Its also pretty darn tough and will make a good chopper.
 
I would use 1084 or 80CrV2. spend the money and get a pyrometer(K type thermocouple and a display), should be less than $50 so you know your heat. I am guessing you will be using charcoal. get a piece of 3 inch pipe or steel square tube and arrange it where you can get your blade in and out and the thermocouple is inside. cover the pipe in the charcoal, when thermocouple display says 1500F, put the blade in. you should be able to regulate temperature a little using a small fan or hair dryer to make fire hotter, moving charcoal away or misting the charcoal with water to cool down. once the blade is same color as the pipe, wait 2 or 3 minutes, remove and dunk in warm canola oil as described above. wipe blade clean then into toaster oven preheated to 375F for an hour. rinse in cold water. back in oven at 350F for an hour. should work well.
 
BTW if ya decide to go the A2 route I'd go with 62RC for your knife and 60 RC for your son's.
 
I know you already ordered but I've been down this same road myself and to anyone else reading:

1075, 1080 and 1084 are the best beginner steels, you do not need to hold them at temperature, you just heat them and dunk them. They are also relatively inexpensive.

O1 costs more because it is usually precision ground. It's recommended to hold it at temperature for a certain amount of time (I don't know off the top of my head) to get the most out of it but it will still make a decent blade with a backyard HT.

1095 as far as I know needs a good soak. I have heard that it is pretty finicky about its heat treat. Never used it myself but that's what I've heard.
 
boy&hisdogs said:
I know you already ordered but I've been down this same road myself and to anyone else reading:

1075, 1080 and 1084 are the best beginner steels, you do not need to hold them at temperature, you just heat them and dunk them. They are also relatively inexpensive.

O1 costs more because it is usually precision ground. It's recommended to hold it at temperature for a certain amount of time (I don't know off the top of my head) to get the most out of it but it will still make a decent blade with a backyard HT.

1095 as far as I know needs a good soak. I have heard that it is pretty finicky about its heat treat. Never used it myself but that's what I've heard.
Click to expand...

1075, 1080, 1084 and 80CrV are all great steels. I wouldn't have recommended 1095 personally because you are right, it is finicky with regards to heat treat and quench medium. Another great steel though nonetheless.
 
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