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The BladeForums.com 2024 Traditional Knife is ready to order! See this thread for details: https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/bladeforums-2024-traditional-knife.2003187/
Price is$300$250 ea (shipped within CONUS). If you live outside the US, I will contact you after your order for extra shipping charges.
Order here: https://www.bladeforums.com/help/2024-traditional/ - Order as many as you like, we have plenty.
Recommendation? Beginner with no power tools
- Thread starter Okie405
- Start date
Busto
Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
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I like doing Business with Alpha Knife Supply (AKS) Fast Reliable service and he ships USPS Flat Rate Boxes and you couldn't ask for a nicer knowledgeable person to talk to on the phone if you have questions about his products. His web ordering page is Real Time so you can see what is available when you place the order and not suffer that "Oh sorry that is on Back Order" phone call.
NJBillK
Custom Leather and Fixed Blade modifications.
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I would call them and tell to cancel the order... if this is how they do business, I would rather they not have my money.
An order placed on Friday (unless after hours) should ship Saturday, Monday at the latest.
There are plenty of knife-centric vendors (especially the ones that support this site) that will do anything they can for the passionate folks that make knives.
I know you are new to this, but linking to a non-paying vendor is not allowed. I would suggest their link gets removed so you don't catch an infraction.
SouthWest OKC / North Moore
I called them again and they provided a tracking number that shows it was dropped off on Monday morning to FedEX and arrived in OKC Tuesday but then sat in the FedEx facility until i called FedEx now today. FedEx said that was odd and that it would be delivered today or I would get a refund on my shipping charges. Appears the issue was with FedEx I guess. Think I will still try some of the companies listed on here though in the future.
I had no idea about the links thing. Went back and deleted them.
Our first night, working on our first knife. My son chose to be the guinea pig. He changed his mind from a chopper to a pig sticker with more straight lines so it would be easier. We learned a couple lessons tonight as well:
Here are some pictures (If I can figure out how to attach them):
In the last picture you see them two big clumps of magnetized file dust. Between those I think there is a high spot there that needs rounded out and filed down some more. Going to fix that tonight.
- A chip breaker file is not as good as a double cut bastard file in removing large amounts of metal. I had thought the chip breaker would be better for this, boy was i wrong. Not sure what use the chip breaker has now?
- Angle grinder cut off discs are cheap POS's and it's about 1 disc per knife. I had expected them to last longer so we had to stop midway and go buy some more.
- Be very precise in your cuts with the angle grinder. The mentality that "ahh we can just file it out" equals a lot more file work.
- Losing the angle grinder arbor wrench is bad news and makes changing discs more annoying. Had to go buy another one.
- Maintaining a straight flat level file is really hard work. Don't sit in a chair to file because it causes the slope of your steels edge to slant downwards to you no matter how you try to prevent it and it causes rounded over edges.
- Inside Rounded turns with a file are near impossible. Had to use a Dremel tool for this.
- Filing is not so bad. It's kind of therapeutic in that you can just crank up the music and kind of zone out and lose yourself in it. We both really enjoyed it.
Here are some pictures (If I can figure out how to attach them):
In the last picture you see them two big clumps of magnetized file dust. Between those I think there is a high spot there that needs rounded out and filed down some more. Going to fix that tonight.
A.McPherson
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The chip breaker files leave a finer finish and still move metal fairly efficiently.
The key for efficient filing is getting your work positioned correctly. You've got to stand for sure, and you want the work about belly button height.
Use your body weight to bear down on the work and push with both arms and legs. Lift up slightly on the return stroke.
To square things up or flatten them out switch to draw filing. Turn your file perpendicular to the work piece and grasp the file in both hands. Push down on each side evenly then pull towards you. Lift and repeat. This is a much slower process than regular filing but it will flatten out wavy surfaces and you'll be able to square up the spine etc. much more easily.
Get a half round and various sizes of round files for inside curves.
The key for efficient filing is getting your work positioned correctly. You've got to stand for sure, and you want the work about belly button height.
Use your body weight to bear down on the work and push with both arms and legs. Lift up slightly on the return stroke.
To square things up or flatten them out switch to draw filing. Turn your file perpendicular to the work piece and grasp the file in both hands. Push down on each side evenly then pull towards you. Lift and repeat. This is a much slower process than regular filing but it will flatten out wavy surfaces and you'll be able to square up the spine etc. much more easily.
Get a half round and various sizes of round files for inside curves.
We both got our knife finished to a degree. Both of us have wavy surface on the edge and the curvy parts are not done at all because I didn't have the foresight to get rounded files. We are both into this and want to continue making many more but I need to decide something. Do I want to get some rounded files and continue on with the filing while I save for a fancy KMG grinder or do I want to just get some el-cheapo power tools from amazon to hold me over till I can save enough for the KMG?
I don't know. What do you think, is one of those 1x30 belt grinder's and a spindle sander decent enough to last about 2 months of knife making? I wont need either any longer than that. If it is going to be able to actually remove enough metal and last for that long I may go that route. If not, then more files may be the route? What do you think?
Busto
Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
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Many makers started with 1 X 30's and still use them for handle work or sharpening. If time is money then the grinder will save time, but you have to learn the dynamics of putting steel to moving belt and be prepared to start out slowly as part of the learning curve. The next cost factor are the various belts and grit progressions again a part of the learning which belts remove metal at a pace you are comfortable with, but it gets you accustomed to stepping up to a 2" X 72" grinder. Look at some youtube videos of 1 X 30 grinders in action see if it's the next step for you or push on with files and sandpaper. Good Luck and Have Fun
A.McPherson
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Personally, I'm a cheap skate and would just buy a couple files. That being said, both the spindle sander and the 1x30 could be used later for working on handles and the like after you get your 2x72...
On the topic of 2x72's buy the best one you can afford, get the direct drive, variable speed with at least two tool arm holders. If you have to save up for two months instead of one, do that. As so many people on here will say "buy once, cry once".
On the topic of 2x72's buy the best one you can afford, get the direct drive, variable speed with at least two tool arm holders. If you have to save up for two months instead of one, do that. As so many people on here will say "buy once, cry once".
I'm going to order more files, the 1x30 and spindle sander on payday when my allowance is restocked with more funds
After that I am entering hardcore savings mode and intend to save enough for the Variable Speed KMG-10 or the Bader B3. I'm undecided on which one at the moment but it's not a big deal right now as I still have plenty of time to research which one to get. The major difference that I can see (from an uneducated perspective) between the two is that one has a belt running from the motor to a pulley that's connected to the main drive wheel where the other the drive wheel is on the motor. Other than the obvious physical difference is there any pros and cons to a belt and pulley system like that versus the drive wheel on the motor? There has to be a reason why one would choose to power it so differently?
A.McPherson
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Yes, there is a difference. Pulls systems have inherent weaknesses, namely vibration and a small amount of power loss. If you are dead set on those two, go with the bader.
I've never used either but from everything I've read on this forum, the Baded is a FAR better machine. KMG has a reputation for having awful quality control and abysmal customer service.
Ask Matthew Gregory on this forum about the KMG and he'll give you an earful!
I built my own, but were I to buy one, I'd buy one from Oregon Blademaker on EBay or save up some more money and get one from Northridge Tool. Or if I had more money to play with a TW-90, one of the local guys near by has a couple TW-90s and man are they sweet!
ETA: get a VFD, it's well worth the money!
I've never used either but from everything I've read on this forum, the Baded is a FAR better machine. KMG has a reputation for having awful quality control and abysmal customer service.
Ask Matthew Gregory on this forum about the KMG and he'll give you an earful!
I built my own, but were I to buy one, I'd buy one from Oregon Blademaker on EBay or save up some more money and get one from Northridge Tool. Or if I had more money to play with a TW-90, one of the local guys near by has a couple TW-90s and man are they sweet!
ETA: get a VFD, it's well worth the money!
If I'm paying that much then I ain't paying for any inherent weaknesses. Catch you later KMG and belt drives!
I would prefer to build my own over buying one, but I don't think I could build one better than a company that builds them for a living. The Oregon Blademaker and Northridge tool ones are cheaper than the Bader. Are they better? I thought the Bader was the cream of the crop?
Busto
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Bader has been in the Business longer than the other two combined. There was a time when there were only 3-4 belt grinders available and the Bader, Wilton Square wheel were the 2 most often found in a knife shop. Move ahead 15-20 years and we have so many to chose from that it boils down to Budget dollars and Bells & Whistles....I have a KMG and have made hundreds of knives with it and it was one of the first "New" generation grinders built with knife makers in mind. I have made some serious modifications to the KMG and actually Built a Clone with those modifications from the ground up. KMG builds a Good product it has shortcomings and if you want to spend the time and have the tools necessary to make it better ok....However you can purchase better equipment for a few dollars more that you can hit the ground running.
Don't know how far you are willing to go with this hobby, but you can probably drop an easy 2K on a grinder if you but a middle of the road "Top Name" grinder like Wilmont, Esteem, Northridge, to name a few of the better and more popular models. I highly recommend the purchase of Direct Drive skip the pulley system(been there done that) Purchase a system with a VFD so you have speed control at your finger tips no belt changes required. If you are looking for a middle of the road hobby machine a new company out of Texas is building a reasonable price unit that has options for upgrades as you grow and won't break the bank check out REEDER Procucts. If I didn't have 3 grinders already and I was in the market I would certainly pick one of these up. Good Luck and Have Fun
Check out the Link and watch the videos...You can purchase a Base Frame for and build from that....
https://reederproducts.com/shop?olsFocus=false&olsPage=products
Don't know how far you are willing to go with this hobby, but you can probably drop an easy 2K on a grinder if you but a middle of the road "Top Name" grinder like Wilmont, Esteem, Northridge, to name a few of the better and more popular models. I highly recommend the purchase of Direct Drive skip the pulley system(been there done that) Purchase a system with a VFD so you have speed control at your finger tips no belt changes required. If you are looking for a middle of the road hobby machine a new company out of Texas is building a reasonable price unit that has options for upgrades as you grow and won't break the bank check out REEDER Procucts. If I didn't have 3 grinders already and I was in the market I would certainly pick one of these up. Good Luck and Have Fun
Check out the Link and watch the videos...You can purchase a Base Frame for and build from that....
https://reederproducts.com/shop?olsFocus=false&olsPage=products
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Reeder, Northridge Tool, Oregon Blademaker, Bader Those are the recommended companies so far.
VFD speed control and direct drive a must. In my opinion the arms for a flat platen, 10" wheel and slack belt are all a must too from what I have been reading.
My son and I's, longterm goal is this: Do stock removal until we got the hang of it and can produce good quality knives. When that has been accomplished we would like to move from stock removal to forging and doing our own heat treeating. We do not intend to sell anything we make. Just making for ourselves and family members. If someday, years from now we feel that our work is good enough to sell and we have made everything that we want then we might look at selling some stuff just so we still have a reason for making more. Not looking to build a real business out of this. A soon as money becomes the goal it becomes serious and the fun will be gone (in My opinion).
If you guys were a new knifemaker just starting out and had a "starting" budget of no more than $2500 for a belt grinder and the goals listed above which one of the above would you go with? Obviously cheaper than $2500 is better, but only if there is no sacrifice in long term quality/usability. I only chose the Bader because it's what the majority of the knifemaking videos on youtube are using. I don't know enough about all the companies and have zero experience as of right now using one, which is why I am asking you guys.
PS. Thank you all, for your assistance thus far. You have all helped to get us started in this hobby and we both appreciate it.
VFD speed control and direct drive a must. In my opinion the arms for a flat platen, 10" wheel and slack belt are all a must too from what I have been reading.
My son and I's, longterm goal is this: Do stock removal until we got the hang of it and can produce good quality knives. When that has been accomplished we would like to move from stock removal to forging and doing our own heat treeating. We do not intend to sell anything we make. Just making for ourselves and family members. If someday, years from now we feel that our work is good enough to sell and we have made everything that we want then we might look at selling some stuff just so we still have a reason for making more. Not looking to build a real business out of this. A soon as money becomes the goal it becomes serious and the fun will be gone (in My opinion).
If you guys were a new knifemaker just starting out and had a "starting" budget of no more than $2500 for a belt grinder and the goals listed above which one of the above would you go with? Obviously cheaper than $2500 is better, but only if there is no sacrifice in long term quality/usability. I only chose the Bader because it's what the majority of the knifemaking videos on youtube are using. I don't know enough about all the companies and have zero experience as of right now using one, which is why I am asking you guys.
PS. Thank you all, for your assistance thus far. You have all helped to get us started in this hobby and we both appreciate it.
Busto
Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
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I would seriously look at the Northridge Pro Package with the tilt feature and the "RAT" tool arm which is a great feature, but with budget constraints could be an add-on later it's available separately. You can spend a little less and save some money for BELTS...
You will find that even as a hobby with enough friends and friends of friends wanting a knife you can make enough to buy materials and BELTS...so look at it as a hobby with a little side income and don't set deadlines you can't meet. I have a neighbor who's nephew is in college and is sweeping up the shop and learning the craft and he has sold 3 knives to friends he hunts with...he just pays materials and throws me a Burger and Beer occasionally
You will find that even as a hobby with enough friends and friends of friends wanting a knife you can make enough to buy materials and BELTS...so look at it as a hobby with a little side income and don't set deadlines you can't meet. I have a neighbor who's nephew is in college and is sweeping up the shop and learning the craft and he has sold 3 knives to friends he hunts with...he just pays materials and throws me a Burger and Beer occasionally
UPDATE: Fun money account received more funds today !
I got us a small belt sander to hold us over till I can save enough up for the big fancy Northridge tool one. That one will probably be around Christmas time. Me and the boy are both sacrificing our christmas presents this year for it to speed along the process of getting it. In the meantime I have ordered from Grainger and got the Dayton Belt Grinder 3/4HP, 120/240V, 7/3.5A, 2x48, Item # 2RYN7 Mfr. Model # 2RYN7. It's got a 3/4 hp motor instead of the 1/3 like the $100 specials (Grizzly, HF and the like). I ordered my belts from TruGrit. I got 10 of each of these three: 2x48-60 R980P Blaze Plus Ceramic , 2x48-120 R980P Blaze Plus Ceramic , 2x48-400 A45 217EA Trizact Aluminum Oxide. I also ordered two files each in the half round, round, triangle and then two 7 piece sets of needle files. Lastly a Dremel 4300 (my really old craftsman finally died) and then a kit that has 200 assorted bits for metal cutting, grinding and engraving and then a machinist caliper and divider compass.
In two weeks I intend to get a WEN 14in drill press, all the accessories and then some more steel and handle materials to tide us over till December. After that we go into "SAVE MODE" for the big daddy Northridge tool.
Most of the items ordered today should be here by Monday so we should be back to working on our knives early next week. Can't wait!
I got us a small belt sander to hold us over till I can save enough up for the big fancy Northridge tool one. That one will probably be around Christmas time. Me and the boy are both sacrificing our christmas presents this year for it to speed along the process of getting it. In the meantime I have ordered from Grainger and got the Dayton Belt Grinder 3/4HP, 120/240V, 7/3.5A, 2x48, Item # 2RYN7 Mfr. Model # 2RYN7. It's got a 3/4 hp motor instead of the 1/3 like the $100 specials (Grizzly, HF and the like). I ordered my belts from TruGrit. I got 10 of each of these three: 2x48-60 R980P Blaze Plus Ceramic , 2x48-120 R980P Blaze Plus Ceramic , 2x48-400 A45 217EA Trizact Aluminum Oxide. I also ordered two files each in the half round, round, triangle and then two 7 piece sets of needle files. Lastly a Dremel 4300 (my really old craftsman finally died) and then a kit that has 200 assorted bits for metal cutting, grinding and engraving and then a machinist caliper and divider compass.
In two weeks I intend to get a WEN 14in drill press, all the accessories and then some more steel and handle materials to tide us over till December. After that we go into "SAVE MODE" for the big daddy Northridge tool.
Most of the items ordered today should be here by Monday so we should be back to working on our knives early next week. Can't wait!
Busto
Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
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Sounds like you have a handle on the progression of equipment. Nobody said this was an inexpensive hobby...Enjoy the time with the boys and have FUN!!!!
When belts seem like they are not removing any metal....it's because they are DEAD....The Old Saying is "Use Belts Like they are FREE"
this will eliminate a lot of frustration from belts that are worn out and creating bad grinds and overheating the steel.
When belts seem like they are not removing any metal....it's because they are DEAD....The Old Saying is "Use Belts Like they are FREE"
this will eliminate a lot of frustration from belts that are worn out and creating bad grinds and overheating the steel.
Belt sander arriving today according to the tracking site. Got the rest of my stuff over the weekend though. Those half round and round files make those curvy bits cake. I got my blank and my son got his blank all finished up yesterday. Only thing left now before sending it off to heat treating is the bevels and the holes in the tang. Here is a picture of what we both got so far. Please be gentle, but truthful, this is both of our first knife. Cut out with an angle grinder and then all done by file (a small part with a dremel on my sons).
Both of us have 3, 4in x 2in, pieces of steel to practice bevels on with the belt sander before we try it on our knifes. If need by I also have plenty more steel but we do have 3 each cut out and ready to practice on prior. We will probably start on that Tuesday or Wednesday since I have to first fix the platen on the new sander. It is wider than the belt (2.5in) and that is a biog no-no according to what I have read so I have to chop some metal off it.
A couple questions also:
Both of us have 3, 4in x 2in, pieces of steel to practice bevels on with the belt sander before we try it on our knifes. If need by I also have plenty more steel but we do have 3 each cut out and ready to practice on prior. We will probably start on that Tuesday or Wednesday since I have to first fix the platen on the new sander. It is wider than the belt (2.5in) and that is a biog no-no according to what I have read so I have to chop some metal off it.
A couple questions also:
- Before heat treating does it matter if the metal discolors on the surface while cutting out with an angle grinder? I know that it does after heat treating, but what about before heat treating?
- If we intend to add file decoration on the spine we should do so before heat treating, right? If so is there any increased chance that doing so will cause it to warp in heat treating? I plan to keep the edge at .015 until after I get it back from heat treating, I've read that this significantly reduces the chance of warping? Is that thickness correct or should it be greater?
- What HRC number should I tell the heat treating people we need on both of these knives at. They offer that as a part of their service. This is A2 steel. I plan to do a Sabre grind on mine and my son a chisel grind on his. Mine is a skinner to be used on skinning deer and my goal is sharp as can bee while retaining it's edge for as long as possible while cutting skin, tendons, ligaments and occasionally bumping or raking a bone (it happens). Good and sharp and a knife tip and blade edge that don't chip or break from every day use type stuff is my sons goal.
Busto
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1. I would rather send blades off "Clean" no discoloration that way you know that any problems(probably won't be any) but the HT facility can inspect clean surface prior to heat treat to look for any areas suspect to cause a crack on quench.
2. Any decorative file work should be done before HT and should not cause any warping. I prefer a little bit thicker 0.020-0.024 is about right the closer you are to .020 the less you will have to deal with after HT.
3. I like A2 at 62HRC that is a good tough blade that will hold an edge and be easy to touch up in the field(I hunt Elk and that hide will kill most anything less tough) I can't get through a whole Elk with one knife way to much work so I use 3 sharp knives and still might have to do a little touch up sharpening I want the edge to go through like it's butter...but that's just me with lots of knives
A. Your grind being a recurve is a tough one to grind just starting out...Thought I would throw that in there in case you struggle with getting it symetrical. You will need to work the "Inside" curve at the edge of the belt instead of "Flat" against the belt like on an normal flat grind or saber grind it's a bit tricky. If your son is going to do file work on that pointy sticker stop a good half inch from the tip or he will have trouble with grinding the tip away and lose the filing work.
2. Any decorative file work should be done before HT and should not cause any warping. I prefer a little bit thicker 0.020-0.024 is about right the closer you are to .020 the less you will have to deal with after HT.
3. I like A2 at 62HRC that is a good tough blade that will hold an edge and be easy to touch up in the field(I hunt Elk and that hide will kill most anything less tough) I can't get through a whole Elk with one knife way to much work so I use 3 sharp knives and still might have to do a little touch up sharpening I want the edge to go through like it's butter...but that's just me with lots of knives
A. Your grind being a recurve is a tough one to grind just starting out...Thought I would throw that in there in case you struggle with getting it symetrical. You will need to work the "Inside" curve at the edge of the belt instead of "Flat" against the belt like on an normal flat grind or saber grind it's a bit tricky. If your son is going to do file work on that pointy sticker stop a good half inch from the tip or he will have trouble with grinding the tip away and lose the filing work.
1. I would rather send blades off "Clean" no discoloration that way you know that any problems(probably won't be any) but the HT facility can inspect clean surface prior to heat treat to look for any areas suspect to cause a crack on quench.
2. Any decorative file work should be done before HT and should not cause any warping. I prefer a little bit thicker 0.020-0.024 is about right the closer you are to .020 the less you will have to deal with after HT.
3. I like A2 at 62HRC that is a good tough blade that will hold an edge and be easy to touch up in the field(I hunt Elk and that hide will kill most anything less tough) I can't get through a whole Elk with one knife way to much work so I use 3 sharp knives and still might have to do a little touch up sharpening I want the edge to go through like it's butter...but that's just me with lots of knives
A. Your grind being a recurve is a tough one to grind just starting out...Thought I would throw that in there in case you struggle with getting it symetrical. You will need to work the "Inside" curve at the edge of the belt instead of "Flat" against the belt like on an normal flat grind or saber grind it's a bit tricky. If your son is going to do file work on that pointy sticker stop a good half inch from the tip or he will have trouble with grinding the tip away and lose the filing work.
Thank you Sir.
Mine is going to be my first but I am doing a whole bunch of practice on scrap pieces before I even try that curvy son of a gun.
We actually got the grinder in yesterday by the time I got home from work and man this is not what I was expecting. I was expecting some piddly small thing under powered and barely able to remove metal. I was wrong. This thing is a beast. Maybe that's my noobness talking having no experience with the big grinders most of the pro's use. I'm pretty impressed. You can adjust the belt tracking, change the wheels out, once I removed all the dumb guards it has easy belt changing. When running it makes a nice whirring sound and there is zero side to side movement in the belt when rotating, it stays right where you track it to. The only problem that I can see right away is the darn platen. I knew before buying that it was 2.5 inches wide and had just planned to grind some away off the edges, but after looking at it that ain't possible. It's built into the frame. I don't think it will be an issue though as you can also adjust the horizontal movement of the the wheels forward so you could just put another piece of metal in on top of the platen if need be. Right now I don't need to because I can just adjust the tracking on the belt to the far right side or far left side for whatever side of the knife I'm working on. I'm sure that when the platen becomes worn I will have to figure out a way to attach another chunk of steel on top of the existing.
Here is a pic of it:
Here is a pic of my very first practice grind on a scrap piece. Ugh, I suck. I got lots more practice to do. We are both going to start out freehand with no jigs so we don't hamper our progression later down the road. I read that was the best way to begin.
My son didn't get to spend much time last night in the garage as he was studying for a test at school. He did get to sharpen an old hickory kitchen knife on it though and did a much better job than I did. He has problems with the curve near the tip. He will get better with practice I think.
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