Beginner's question about forging vs. stock removal

A

AEM

Joined
Nov 4, 1998
Messages
36
I am looking toward the day when I order my first custom knife (fixed blade), and keep noticing how many more makers use stock removal rather than forging. I gather that hand forging is a skill that hasn't been mastered by many makers and it would seem that forged blades should generally command higher prices, all things being equal.

My question is, are forged blades superior for some purposes? Is a hand forged blade worth paying more for? I intend to use my custom knfe; I will probably order a practical hunter design or a tactical design that can perform all around outdoor tasks. So for these uses, what are the advantages of forged vs. stock removal?

I'm sure this is a newbie question. I appreciate your tolerance.
 
Hand-forging packs and refines the grain structure in ways that I don't entirely understand (I'm a stock-removal maker), but the results in performance are certainly impressive. Add to that the fact that most forging takes place with "carbon" (non-stainless) steels, which are quite simply a world apart in edge-holding, sharpenability, and toughness from "normal" (non-particle metal) stainless steels, and I'd say yes, the hand-forged blade has some serious performance advantages.

Why go with stock removal? Well, first of all, it's easier and should therefor be somewhat cheaper. Remember, anyone who forges a knife must then go through all the same grinding steps a stock-removal maker does (albeit perhaps removing less metal). Also, what if you want a knife that doesn't need to be kept dry and cleaned constantly? Stainless steels are supposed to respond very poorly to forging and often have heat-treatment cycles far more exacting than what a maker can do in a small shop that will easily handle the heat-treatment of carbon steel blades.

Add to this the new crop of particle metals and other "super-materials" that may out-perform the most expertly forged piece of carbon steel, and one might even predict that the age of forging was nearing an end, at least as the ultimate way to produce a working knife. I don't think that bladesmith are in any danger of losing business, because damascus is always growing in popularity, but simply think that we may finally have steels available that, in bar form, outperform a well-hammered piece of 52100 while also resisting corrosion.

There are great artists in both areas of knifemaking. Whether you choose a stock-removal blade out of some particle steel, or a forged blade from simple O-1, I'm sure you'll be thrilled with the performance advantage (and "fit and finish") over production knives.

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-Corduroy
(Why else would a bear want a pocket?)
 
Corduroy: Forgive me if I disagree with some of your statements. First, forging cannot "pack" the molecules any closer together than they already are. This is all defined by physics. Please remember that all barstock is forged during the rolling process. Second, while simpler steels may be tougher than some, they simply cannot compete WRT edge holding/wear resistance.
Forging can make a great blade-I don't want to take anything away from it. It also introduces many opportunities to have problems. This is where the individual knifemaker comes in. Some (probably not most) can deliver consistent performance blade to blade. Others, may be more hit or miss.
Of course, I use stock removal, and am biased. Metallurgically, I believe it is very hard to argue that a knife forged from a simple steel can outperform a more exotic alloy, properly heat treated. Just my 2 cents.

RJ Martin
 
I am afraid that I have to agree with RJ in that forging a simple steel cannot create properties in a steel that have been achieved in a specially created alloy. While forging and proper heat treating can improve a simple steel it cannot equal a designer tool steel where the characteristics are the results of very precise metalurgical engineering and are unvarying from batch to batch if heat treating is done to specifications.

The simple reason that more makers use stock removal instead of forging is the lack of equipment or more usually lack of appropriate location. My neighbours would kick up an unholy stink if I set up a power hammer in the back yard and began making noise late into the night. Stock removal is relatively quiet and more considerate of the neighbours.



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george
www.tichbourneknives.com
sales@tichbourneknives.com

 
Well, you're two fellows with quite a few more knives to your name than I have, so I'll certainly take your word on it. Also, as I said, my experience is stock removal and I can't claim to totally (perhaps I should say "even remotely") understand forging. I've been reading every old article I can find by Goddard and Fowler since this thread came up, though, and they certainly do seem to feel (and show) that forging can make a simple carbon steel do some amazing things. I can't figure what is meant by "packing," but I didn't make the term up.

Isn't the purpose of most alloys to give steel resistance to corrosion and/or heat? I was under the impression that all the complex steel alloys were attempts to get the metal's performance *back* to that of a carbon steel after adding stain or heat resistance that actually detracted from its cutting abilities (hence the poor reputation of stainless steels in cutlery until the 70's - they were stainless, but they weren't good for blades). Maybe now we're seeing exotic alloys that exceed the abilities of a simple carbon steel, but that's only recently, with particle metals and such. In my limited experience, a simple 52100 blade blows the doors off of ATS-34, 440C, GIN-1, and all the other "normal" stainless steels I've tried (though it rusts at a glance). Have you found differently?

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-Corduroy
(Why else would a bear want a pocket?)
 
Having been a stock removal guy for a few years and recently converted to forging, I think both have there place. I am not sure how it works, but the process of forging does reduce the grain size. You can see this if you etch the blade...Check out Ed Fowler's video. In the world of tools and machinery parts, forgings are used for many of the parts and tools that must be very tough. The other aspect of a forged blade is that the grain of the steel follows the curve of the blade. When you grind a blade in the pure stock removal sense out of rolled bar, the curve of the blade is end grain. I still make knives by stock removal in ATS-34 and 440-C, but for my own use and for those who will listen, I recommend a forged blade out of 5160.

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Ron Ruppé
www.ruppe.com/Knives/index.htm
 
Corduroy the "packing " that people talk about is probably nothing more than work hardening, a term invented to explain a harder than normal surface condition noticed in areas that have been peened or shot blasted after fabrication. I think
the action helps with the formation of martensite in the area worked because the peening action is stress releiving the material in the area.

You can try something like this with your next mirror polished blade. Test two areas with another already hardened blade to see if the scratches are the same. Mirror polish one of the areas and try the scratch test again. The mirror polished section will be much harder to scratch. This is due to the peening action of the buffing wheel, a desirable condition in knifemaking but in the ornamental railing trade this causes the joint to become slightly brittle and is undesirable. A good polisher in the ornamental trade spends as little time buffing as possible because of this problem.



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george
www.tichbourneknives.com
sales@tichbourneknives.com

 
Gentlemen,

Thank you for sharing your expertise and perspectives with us. I have learned a lot, and want to learn more.

Corduroy, I'm still laughing over your haiku about the "brown truck of joy"!

 
I used to do stock removal when I first started. I talked with guys who had 20 to 30 years of metallurgical and heat treating experience about the difference between stock removal and forged blades. They all agreed that you can't "pack" steel particles and that the performance of both types of blades was equal. The professed better performance of the forged blades was all smoke and mirrors to them. So, I listened to their expertise and ground blades for a while.

After I encountered guys who forged blades, and saw first hand what a properly forged blade can do, I began to re-evaluate my beliefs. I tried the forging experiment myself, and learned that somehow the quality (toughness, edge-holding, grain) of the forged blades was head and shoulders above what I had done via stock removal. For some reason, forging imparts a certain intangible that cannot be achieved with stock removal. That intangbible results in a better working knife.

I don't understand it, but it works. I'm sure the repeated heating and cooling that takes place during forging has a lot to do with it, but I suspect the hammering does a lot too. I also have found out that you don't have to be an expert to produce quality forged blades. Despite what has been said, I find it very difficult to ruin a blade while forging. There are certain parameters you must abide by, but you have to almost try to ruin a blade to do so.

All this being said, I must confess that I haven't worked with the newer, more promising stainless steels, and I figure they are beginning to reach the performance level of forged blades, if handled properly.



[This message has been edited by fenixforge (edited 27 May 1999).]
 
Forging a blade does not result in a harder blade because of work hardenting. After forging, you must stress relieve the blade by annealing it before you give it the final heat treat. The forging of the blade and the packing of the edge shows a smaller grain size than the same steel unforged.

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Ron Ruppé
www.ruppe.com/Knives/index.htm
 
Just to further muddy the waters, I'll throw in the claims by David Boye (I hope I do not misrepresent him) that forging breaks down and destroys the larger carbide particles, far *worsening* the ability of the blade to produce a microserrated edge. His work to produce the largest, most deeply rooted possible carbide particles (dendritic carbide) by actually casting the steel is completely against conventional wisdom, but I have yet to meet anyone who doubts the results of his tests. His cast blades cut and cut and cut, and as they wear new carbide is exposed and they just seem to cut better (I've had the opportunity to use several, but am basing this mainly on secondhand info). What do folks think of that?

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-Corduroy
(Why else would a bear want a pocket?)
 
Grain size! Its the same argument that people have regarding serrated and plain edged blades. Serrated blades are harder to dull as they have more edge and parts of it are protectd from dulling when cutting, and/or tearing, some materials. You could extend that argument and say the larger grain size makes it more like a saw with its rough edge. I would not say that because a knife is more like a saw because of its large grain size that tears more efficiently, that it is sharper or "cuts" better!

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Ron Ruppé
www.ruppe.com/Knives/index.htm
 
What a knifemaker does either after forging or after stock removal is the secret. Normalizing the blade or materials is very important. Most steels bought in the bar form from good mills are normalized and annealed.
If the person forging the steel understands grain refinement - after forging and the elements of the materials they are forging the blade will be a good steel.
I agree with RJ here except in one respect.
There are folks forging steel that pay attention to forging ranges,grain refinment, normalizing, annealing and the heat treat of the blades they make.
Im one of them. I use digital equiptment and calibrate it on a regular basis.

There are good steels in carbons, superalloys stainless and other mixes. One
other factor that is overlooked most often is that there is a proper steel for every type of knife. Most often many steels cross over but sometimes there are just better choices for a certain use.

 
Darrel - you are so right as to the importance of the stress relief and heat treat. What would be interesting would be a simple test of say two small blades in 5160, a steel that is used quiet a bit by both grinders and smiths. Two blades with upswept points. One with the curve forged in and one ground in. Heat treat them together. Put about 1" of the tips of each in a vise and bend. Would they both take the same stress?

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Ron Ruppé
www.ruppe.com/Knives/index.htm
 
Also this crap about egde packing is for the birds. I heard a fellow at a show tell a customer that they were SPLITING the atoms into smaller sizes and then had a better blade. Well What kind of BOMB were they building . HEHEHEHE:}
As for a test well as said in the post above .. there is a good steel chioce for every style of knife. Carbons have downfalls, but stainless has them also..
Until makers have have several years of both forging there blades and stock removal under there belts they are tainted in opinions. Try both.. for several years...if you pay attention both are great ways to make knives.
Personally I like both and do both with good results . Forging is a labor of love. I love damascus and the artistic patterns that can be built with some thought. I love the cpm type stainless's also because I feel they are
great steels that cut well (when heat treated properly)


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Web Site At www.infinet.com/~browzer/bldesmth.html
Take a look!!!


[This message has been edited by Darrel Ralph (edited 28 May 1999).]

[This message has been edited by Darrel Ralph (edited 28 May 1999).]
 
Corduroy:I believe it also has to do with aligning the carbides in "right" direction and allowing the carbides to become as long as possible,which is part of the reason why boye cut so bloody well.

As for packing a material tighter,well unless you have a black hole handy then it can't be done, you would have to use massive gravitation effects to collapse atomical bonds.
 
I think the alignment of the molecules is the correct answer. The alignment allows for a finer grain. I guess in theory, within a single type of steel, a finer grain would be more dense as the molecules are closer together. As Darrel says, the different steels and different ways to make knives all have their place. Getting back to the original question and statement about why so many use stock removal as opposed to forging. Forges take up a more space, are a nuisance to neighbors and cost money.
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Ron Ruppé
www.ruppe.com/Knives/index.htm


[This message has been edited by Ruppe (edited 28 May 1999).]
 
At the risk of catching the rath ofthe entire forum I only saw one reply that holds any credence take two 5160 blades or what ever and experiment!!!! In the Blade Mag. Wayne Goddard Stock removal and forger and Ed Fowler Forger only did the experiment. I have seen the new cpm blades and am impressed with the preformance. I am currently testing some cpm3v by forging it.
If you think that any of the current current stainless blades (not counting cpm)out cut forged blades that are properly treated your kidding yourself. Try some experimenting!!! The main purpose for stain resistant steels is for conviencience. However high carbon steels are not as hard to take care of as some have mentioned!!!!!!

goshawk
www.imt.net/~goshawk
 
well I have done both stock removial and forging and well if there is nothing to do for a while go with the forging and if you have something happening within a while go with grinding

I hope that I did not confuse anybody because I really confued myself pretty good
 
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