Beginner's question about forging vs. stock removal

Forging versus stock removal. What a subject!

Stock removal is actually a more modern approach to making a blade. Even with pattern welded steel, which is becoming more and more readily available in bar stock (a la Damasteel and some others), stock removal is becoming more and more the choice of many makers.

Man has been forging blades for many, many years. There is a lot of legend and lore concerning the making of a blade. From the Norse bladesmiths to the Japanese makers, some of what we have heard is true, some is not.

(Now, this is where you say to yourself, this CLWilkins fellow has gone off the deep end, but bear with me).

There is a lot of mystique around forging a blade. Way back when, there were the "prayers" and "chants" associated with bladesmithing..In days before time pieces and other methods ot measuring elapsed time, a practiced and repeated chant or prayer would be a viable method for measuring "soak time" on a piece of iron...knowing that you should start the chant when the iron is say just turning red and then remove it and quech when you are done with the prayer could allow enough time for the carbon to go fully into solution while you are "praying"...Medieval man was not stupid...he was just not aware of the whys and wherefors of things.

No, prayers and chants aren't necessary, I was just making a point on one of the traditional aspects of forging. I do stock removal and I have been known to say a chant or two in the shop. Especially the time when I got a little too careless around the buffer!

Forging is the more "traditional" method and the maker actually has more control over the finished piece. I don't believe I have to explain to this forum what is meant by "more control".

Which is better? No one can truthfully answer that question. It depends on the application AND the heat treat.

CLWilkins
 
Darrel: Note that in my original response, I said something like " most, not all" My comment was not intended to disrespect forgers-certainly, there some great ones out there, who do really control the process. I have also seen guys beating out metal under atrocious conditions, and, I certainly wouldn't want one of their blades.

RJ Martin
 
rj

Even if it held an edge 3 to 5 times longer?
I still don't here anyone wanting to compare toughness or edge holding capability. Has anyone tried taking a 1/2 inch hemp rope and tried cutting through it several times to see how long the edge of their knive held up no matter who made it. Maybe we just want to look at our shiney blades.I have a letter from a gentleman who took a trip to Alaska with a friend they each took a bull moose and had 3 stock removal and a small (3 3/4")forged blade. If someone is interested in a copy I'll send it to you just e-mail me. I'll step way out on a limb. I'm willing to make a test blade to send to a couple of you guys to test against stock removal blades and I'll be the first to admit that I don't make the best blade in the kingdom. If you are willing to send me one to test.

goshawk
www.imt.net/~goshawk
 
Goshawk: The only way to do a valid comparison is with identical blades-size, shape, thickness, grind type and , most importantly, perhaps, edge thickness and bevel angle. Then, you have to decide on how you want to test.
I do not dispute the performance of some forged blades. However, I believe the data will show that is is very difficult to equal the performance of some of the hi-tech materials out there. Last time I checked, industrial cutting tools weren't being produced from simple carbon tool stels like O1 and 5160. they're being produced out of high speed, or particle metals, or some more sophisticated tool steel.
Also, I'd like to say that you can screw up a stock removal knife pretty well, too, if you don't watch yourself. I have seen hundreds of bad stock removal knives. The point to remember, is, it's the specifics used in either process that either make a great blade, or, something else.
I use a relatively simple steel, A2 for many of my knives, and, I believe the general concensus out there in knifeland is that they are pretty high on the performance end.
So, my intent wasn't to slam forgers. Note that, the original post was from a "newbie", and, in my humble opinion, I still think a newbie is less likely to go wrong with a stock removal knife as an initial custom purchase.

RJ Martin
 

I probably need to appologize to everyone. I get on my high horse every once in awhile.
I would just like people to experiment around and discover new methods and different combinations. That will work for them and maybe someone else, if they share. I don't necessary believe that a stock removal blade is a good one for a beginner. That is why I've got probably 20 knives that I've aquired over the years (even some custom stock removal) That I wasn't happy with. It is one of the reasons I started making knives. I wasn't happy with what was out there. I knew how to sharpen a knife, but I"ll be danged if I care to do it in the middle of gutting, quartering and skinning out an Elk back in the Mountains. Anyway, I've said all I want to on the subject. I know I can hear you cheering.

goshawk
www.imt.net/~goshawk

 
Goshawk: Actually, I'd like to hear more about your forged blades-type of steel, specifics on forging and heat treatment, grind type, etc.
They type of performance you're speaking of is great, and, I have similar stories about my knives as well. What we are both talking about, I believe, is called QUALITY-and, you can find it it in knives made in a hundred different ways. But, you can't find it in every knife.

And, I admire the way you stick up for what you believe in!

RJ Martin

 
I wanted to thank everyone who took the time to answer my question and give all of us the benefit of their knowledge and experience. The contributors to this thread constitute a Who's Who of knifemaking! You would have to work hard to assemble this much information and expertise from the literature.

It seems to me that forging, properly done, provides some advantage in the blade's ability to take and hold an edge, but that the newer, complex steels used by the best stock removal makers offer some advantages as well.

I'm thinking that if I want a traditional design, for example a Scagel style camp knife, with traditional materials and fittings, it would be most appropriate to have it made by a master forger. If I want a high tech, high performance tactical knife it might be best to have it made by the stock removal method out of one of the premium stainless steels. I must admit that corrosion resistance is important to me in a using knife. I live in Florida where the humidity averages 114% year around.

This way I can justify more knives!

Thanks again everyone.
 
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