Benchmade and Allan Elishewitz! What gives?

The 49-SPL went for $800 each. They were hand polished, have Les' Signature on them and came in a decorative wood box with papers.

The 49-01 will go for $600 each. They will not be hand polished or have Les' signature on them. I'm not sure about the wood box though.

Need proof? http://192.41.25.213/ultbb/Forum1/HTML/001940-4.html

11th post down, the one from BMST.
 
The vast majority of posts in this and other forums as regards the split between Elishewitz/Benchmade is pure speculation.
It could very well be that Mr Elishewitz just wants to spend more time in the lucrative custom market or has had better offers for his services elsewhere.
If, after 6 years with Benchmade, the only reason for leaving is that he was not happy with the direction the company was taking, he made the correct decision – he rode off into the sunset.
To blame Benchmade when not all the facts are known is premature,
foolish and unjust.
I will be supporting Benchmade if they have a product that appeals to me.
 
Quoted from The General

"Benchmade was in the habit of asking its custom
makers to come up with a design. Benchmade would then take
elements from each of the custom makers designs, make a single
knife, then not pay the custom makers royalties because, Benchmade
argued, they didn't make their knife. Benchmade would tell them it was
designed by Benchamde, so they they didn't owe them a royalty check.
They evidently made this a regular practice, and so everyone left.
Elishewitz came along and got involved with them because at the time
he was a new, young maker and probably didn't know any of this was
going on. "


Please name just ONE new knife from Benchmade in the last 3 years which didn't list a custom designer.
 
Ok...

The 750 Pinnacle for one, the BM42a for two, the Griptillian for three, the teather neck knife for four, the Accent and AccentII for five, the 710 and 705 were using the M&W Axis and not designed by M&W for six, the Mini-Reflex Auto for seven, the Park Avenue 450 for eight, the TSEK for nine, the...

I may be wrong on some of those as I am not a huge BM fan and don't know the full range of products, but am willing to bet a few of those are right, oh and I notice the 730 does not list a designer on the web site! Perhaps BM designed that one as well!:rolleyes:
 
Sour grapes? Not if a custom knife maker carefully reads his licensing agreement and has competent legal counsel before hooking up with a knife manufacturer. That way, everyone knows what is going on and agrees to it in writing.
 
What kind of disturbs me is why anyone thinks it is their business what happened between Benchmade and A.E and Bob T. This is not pointed at anyone, just wondering. Maybe both had good reasons.

I'm sort of suprised at this response Rob because the answer is so obvious. Its the same with any company that produces a durable good whose sales volumes are far higher than can be explained by what people really need. People buy the product because they <i>like</i> it and because they <i>like/support</i> the company that makes it. In the case of knife companies with stables of engineers whose names are well known to their high-end market, the relationship between company and engineer makes a great deal of difference in that company's popularity, which translates into sales.

I'm sure you wouldn't question our right to be interested if someone like A.E. or B.T. said "BM is the greatest knife company in the world. They are making all of us engineers famous, and their products are second to none!" If we can be legitimately interested in positive news, I don't see why we shouldn't also be interested in negative news... Besides, we have to find <i>something</i> to talk about.. :rolleyes:
 
Rob:

Obviously, this isn't anybody's business except Benchmade and the makers involved but, as you likely know, well known knifemakers become celebrities of a sort in the industry and people do have a fascination with celebrity. Heck, you should know. You're a knifemaker celebrity yourself. Pretty hard to keep people from gossiping. Take care and keep 'em sharp.
 
Is it just me, or are the four makers mentioned in BM's press release, the four makers that designed their line of axis lock folders?
Seems like benchmade is really pushing in that direction.
 
It appears that Allen's and my departure from Benchmade has caused a bit of a stir and I think it is time for an explanation.
I speak for myself only on this. I felt that my interests of both a financial as well as exposure nature would be best served by being a free agent once again as I had been in the past. When I worked with Sal Glesser or Jim Furgal of Camillus or Jeff Loffer of Cutlery Shoppe, I never had a contract, only a handshake .
My own personal way of doing business is based on a relationship of trust and mutual benefit. I believe that I can better serve those who enjoy my work to allow them a broad selection of knives, both my handmade as well as designed-for-factory products. You'll be seeing more of both shortly.
Allen and I have become close friends during our time at Benchmade and I thank them for that. We have collaborated on several projects. The Alliance Series, and the Pearl Harbor Commemorative Series
(see Allen's website) have been very satisfying and we plan further joint projects in the near future.
Lastly, I do believe that this event IS your business. You are the people who keep us in alive with your hard earned money but even more so, keep us stimulated with your interest and constant enthusiasm.
Believe me when I say that none of us do this for money alone. What a sad and dreary endeavor this would be without the spirit and joy we all feel by being a part of this community.
See you in New York. BOB
:)
 
Thanks for giving us knife buyers some credit. I have been reading these posts where people continue to say its a private matter between Benchmade and who ever. I keep thinking to myself -- we are the ones buying the knives. It should be at least a little bit our business too.

So thanks and it is nice to see you respond to all the hoopla.

JT
 
Originally posted by bobterzuola
I speak for myself only on this. I felt that my interests of both a financial as well as exposure nature would be best served by being a free agent once again as I had been in the past.

Works for me. BM's customed designed by knifemaker X are still BM's. Most of the revenue goes to BM of course, and the design becomes tied to the company as much as the individual designer. I wouldn't sell the in-house team at BM short, and I think the designers can and should do whatever they feel is in their best interest. Nobody's dog died, no one's getting sued, I'll keep buying knives no matter the designer or manufacturer, just as long as they're good designs.
 
Thank-you very much for the information Bob. It is really appreciated by us, the buying public. I think none of us wanted to know anything that really was personal, just why the change so we can support what we want to support and buy the knives we want.

By the way, thansk to ALL who have done factory collaborations. All of the folders I have or have owned have eben factory collabs.
 
When asked:

Please name just ONE new knife from Benchmade in the last 3 years which didn't list a custom designer

The General responded:

Ok...

The 750 Pinnacle for one, the BM42a for two, the Griptillian for three, the teather neck knife for four, the Accent and AccentII for five, the 710 and 705 were using the M&W Axis and not designed by M&W for six, the Mini-Reflex Auto for seven, the Park Avenue 450 for eight, the TSEK for nine, the...

I may be wrong on some of those as I am not a huge BM fan and don't know the full range of products, but am willing to bet a few of those are right, oh and I notice the 730 does not list a designer on the web site! Perhaps BM designed that one as well!

Lets see:
The 750 was not released in the last 3 years and was designed in house, not by a custom maker.
The BM42a was released in the last 3 years, you have that part right but also had no connection with a custom maker.
The Griptillian has Mel Pardue credited right on the blade.
The teather neck knife has Elishewitz right on the blade.
The Ascent and Ascent II were designed in house, not by a custom maker.
The 710 & 705 have McHenry & Williams right on the blade.
The Mini Reflex was designed in house, not by a custom maker.
The Park Avenue 450 has Turzola right on the blade.
The TSEK was designed in house, not by a custom maker.
The 730 has Elishewitz right on the blade.

Now that these gentelmen have resigned from BM you may see new versions without the names, as the designs are now owned by BM, but during their term of contract their designs were always credited.
 
I dont know what happened but I can guess! Alan is a "artist" Benchmade is a "company" one party wants to make art one wants to make money. Ultimatly the course is set for disaster. As a business owner myself I can say it is extremly difficult to deal with artists in a "profit" setting. No fault of the artist or the business but the fault is what motivates each party is as different as night/day. Maybe in the future knife companies such as BM need to be more patrons of the art as opposed to borrowing from the knife makers design.

My two cents


Ren
 
I can confirm that the 710 was designed by Bill and my assumption that the markings refered to the 'Axis' alone was a mistake. Also the lack of knoledge is clear with the other BM models on my part. However after going from the website and not seeing many of the blades it was an off the top of my head thing. Sorry.

BUT...

As I was asked to list non custom makers knives, the list is still

Lets see:
The 750 (reviewed a couple of months ago in TK so I was not aware it had been out more than 3 years)
The BM42a (as well as quite a few varients!)
The Ascent and Ascent II
The Mini Reflex and the TSEK.

Thats six models that " name just ONE new knife from Benchmade in the last 3 years which didn't list a custom designer"

The whole point is they DON'T list as custom designed but designed IN HOUSE! I don't claim they were stolen interlectual property in any way, but I am just pointing out that BM make more than 'custom' branded knives and the 'answer' I was given thus may hold some truth?

Anyway, thanks for the comments and esp Bob for putting this in its real context! Interesting topic yes?:)
 
Thanks Bob for the information and good luck in your future endeavors.
You know I need to get off my butt and drive up to Santa Fe and take a look at your knives. Hell I'm just down here in Albuquerque. :)
Balilover, I stand corrected about the price. I was sure my buddy said he only paid $600. I must be having a senior moment again! I'm going to make sure tomorrow at breakfast. I can't wait to take a gander at his knife. It is suppose to be a real beauty! :D
 
The Mini reflex has been around for much more than 3 years. I know of one fella who is not even a knife nut who has had one for at least 5 years now. Of course it is the 2500 without the saftey lock. Still a M Reflex however.
 
OK Matthew and Fred, I see where you are comming from and you are right. Bob T has posted and cleared up some speculation. Now that I think about it speculation is a fun thing for the most part! :)
 
Any business relationship needs to be mutually beneficial. Both parties give up something to gain something else. Every good business relationship is a trade.

Custom makes often have great designs but they lack the resources to manufacture them in any quantity and they lack the resources to market and sell them.

Benchmade has a big factory with millions and millions of dollars worth of sophisticated equipment that no custom maker could ever afford. BM has an established marketing program. They have sales channels. And they have a brand name. What they need is great designs.

It's a perfect fit.

But, remember, everyone gives up something in a business relationship too. The custom maker gives up the majority of the profit from the knife. It may seem unfair that BM takes the lions share of the money. But, BM also bears the majority of the expenses in this relationship.

Consider, for example, marketing.

If you're a custom maker, your marketing efforts may include a simple, small website that you may make and maintain yourself. It's nice and it's quite adequate. And you probably host it on a free or very low-cost hosting service. The site may cost you a couple of hundred dollars a year. BM has an elaborate website with a forum and with online shopping. Obviously, BM spends a lot of money on maintaining and operating that site. They've got an employee whom they pay a salary and benefits, who spends most of his time working on that site. Between paying that employee, paying royalties for the forum and e-commerce software, and paying hosting fees for a very high-traffic site, it wouldn't surprise me if BM is spending $75,000-100,000 per year to operate that website.

If you're a custom maker, you might get a table at five or six shows every year and you might travel to those shows and have expenses associated with them. In fact, you might spend $5,000-$10,000/year just going to shows. But BM has large booths at major shows. Just the custom-made display that they use in those booths cost $10,000. A booth is five or ten times the cost of a table. And BM flys eight or ten employees to each show, puts them up in hotels, pays expenses, etc. It would not surprise me if BM's tradeshow budget is in excess of $250,000/year.

If you're a custom maker, you probably have business cards and you may even have a simple, one-page, photocopied brochure. BM publishes several elaborate, full-color catalogs every year.

BM takes out large ads in major magazines. They have a long mailing list for bulk mailings. They have a whole department full of employees who's full-time job is just marketing. They put a lot more money into marketing than I think most custom makers can appreciate.

Now, when BM and a custom maker enter into a collaboration deal, BM's marketing organization promotes not just BM and not just the knife, but they also promote the custom maker.

Remember, this is a business deal and for it to be successful, both parties need to get something they want out of the deal. BM gets the maker's creative design. The custom maker gets publicized by BM's marketing organization.

Remember, this is a business deal and for it to be successful, both parties need to give something up. The custom maker gives up a lot of money. But, what does BM give up? Well, BM does give up some money too. If they'd designed the knife in-house, they wouldn't have to pay that maker any royalty. But, BM also gives up something else. They give up the development of their internal design capabilities.

A business relationship ends when one party decides that he no longer want or need the benefit he's getting out of the deal or when one party decides that the benifit he's getting is no longer worth the price he's paying for it.

A custom maker has only a limited production capacity. Eventually, he will decide that he has established himself and he no longer needs BM's marketing and sales capabilities. Some custom makers may choose to invest in increasing their own manufacturing capabilities to handle greater volumes so that they no longer need BM's manufacturing capabilities.

BM does custom collaborations to get fresh, creative new ideas. Sometimes, BM may decide that they're no longer getting fresh new stuff from a certain designer and so they may decide to try some new projects with a different designer. They want to keep that freshness and that creativity.

Also, BM is working to develop their own internal design capabilities. The BM49, which was designed entirely in-house, is a great example of that investment starting to bloom. BM now has a staff of talented designers and so they need fewer outside collaborations.

So, don't be surprised if you see a constant churning in BM's custom collaboration line up. It's actually a healthy sign. The other important thing to realize is that all of the custom designers who have done collaborations with BM remain big names in the custom and small-production knife business today. Their time with BM has contributed to their fame and success.
 
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