Benchmade Axis Lock and Spyderco Cage Ball Lock, opinions wanted

Dorito Monk,

Any explanation on if anything was broken, or is the lock just failing? Looks like it was a lot harder to make it fail when actually stabbing on the spine versus holding the handle and spine-whacking.
 
KennyB said:
Dorito Monk,

Any explanation on if anything was broken, or is the lock just failing? Looks like it was a lot harder to make it fail when actually stabbing on the spine versus holding the handle and spine-whacking.
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I wish I could shed some light on the subject, but I'm afraid I don't know anything more about either the circumstances or aftermath of that video. :o The uploader had the following bit of insight to share, though:

"I have some knives Benchmade. A problem only with it. To send a knife to the manufacturer the expensive. I have untwisted a knife, have removed a paint from an axis and grind slit the lock. Now the knife holds blow"

...whatever the f*** that's supposed to mean. :rolleyes:
 
Pete2s said:
I've been chronically flipping Axis locks for years and I've never had an omega spring break.
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Yup, same here.

And if one spring breaks, the lock still functions normally.

And if both springs break, you can easily improvise a temporary physical block to hold the lockbar in place.
 
Razorsharp1986 said:
I've had a couple of BM Omega springs break on me. However, I've had a 530 for a while now without any problems so far. I've got friends with BM Axis for over 6 years, and they still function nicely. So I guess it depends on how luck you are or something.
I really want to believe the CBBL is as strong and even more reliable than the Axis. Though to be honest, after watching Ankerson's hard use tests of the Grip and Manix 2, I kind of started leaning towards the Axis for strength. And I do think that the CBBL is just a more complex design overall, which in most cases means that it is more likely to fail.
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To be thorough, you probably should distinguish reliable function from pure strength. But as I said before, in real life, assuming you're not trying to destroy the knife, both are excellent choices. Be happy, don't worry?
 
I find the Axis more comfortable than the caged ball lock, the uncaged ball lock superior to both, and the midlock as done by Spyderco and Cold Steel (Tri-ad) superior to both (this is still in terms of comfort.)

Although to be honest I've only tried the caged ball lock on the P'kal, uncaged on Phoenix and Poliwog, and Axis on Rift, 530 and 14210
 
KNaB said:
Seriously? The ball is steel. The cage is a Polymer.




You too? You think the cage is plastic? As for the manix2 seeming "cheap" due to the use of a polymer cage, there are knives which use the axis lock that cost as much or more than a manix2 and they lack full steel liners and have a hollow feeling plastic handle.
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Plastic is plastic, dude. As seen in Glock firearms, it can be very strong. But nevertheless I don't like plastic on a locking mechanism. Even if it's a polymer (plastic) ball cage. Regarding the Benchmade knives, yeah the Griptilians don't use full steel liners and have a hollow "plastic" feel to them (the full size anyway). Your right, they do... But would you rather unnecessary weight? If you need full steel liners on a folder you need a fixed blade, lol. Regarding the plastic Valox handle, how many breakages have you heard of? I am willing to bet it is zero! It may not be as cool as G10 but it's tough, comfortable, and makes impervious to the elements.
 
People have been using (abusing) Axis locks for many years now, while the CBBL is rather new and not widely available. That is the main reason why this debate is so controversial, not enough data-points. Also, the older style ball lock Spyderco had on several models is not necessarily the same locking mechanism as the CBBL. Similar, but should not be regarded as one.

I do not take that one video, made by Ankerson, as a solid proof that the CBBL is weaker than the axis. However, it is a data-point. Also, Ankerson is a very experienced knife user, so I do consider his data-point on the CBBL as very reliable information. Any lock can fail.
I guess we'll have to wait a few good years before we (the knife community) can give a definite verdict to whether the Axis is more reliable/ stronger than the CBBL or not. Time will tell.
 
Dorito Monk said:
Actually, the cylinder would be much easier to deform than the ball.
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You want to explain that one to me, then? Unless both the tang and the backspacer are contoured to wrap around the ball bearing, then the ball makes contact with the tang and the backspacer at one single point.

Pressure = Force / Area

As area drops, pressure increases. There is less area in contact with the ball than with the axis bar. I maintain that a block is the ideal design for a lock like this (isn't that what the Stop Lock is that's going on the Military 2?)

So whether the CBBL is going to completely fail first, I don't know for sure. But it is going to be easier to deform the ball and at the least cause play.
 
00ChevyScott said:
FWIW Spyderco has fixed the CBBL lock problem with the Manix 2 on the new Orange FFG model. Not sure when/if the changes will take place on the regular models, but any future sprint run will most likely also have this updated CBBL design/fix.
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Does anyone here know what exactly was done to fix the CBBL on the Manix 2 subsequent to Ankerson's sending the broken video knife back to Spyderco? I heard that something was fixed, and am curious what the fix was.
 
Bill1170 said:
Does anyone here know what exactly was done to fix the CBBL on the Manix 2 subsequent to Ankerson's sending the broken video knife back to Spyderco? I heard that something was fixed, and am curious what the fix was.
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Sal and Eric Glesser do. Sal posted, either here or at SF, a very, very general statement about the changes, but not in detail and not with any indication of timing.
 
THG said:
You want to explain that one to me, then? Unless both the tang and the backspacer are contoured to wrap around the ball bearing, then the ball makes contact with the tang and the backspacer at one single point.

Pressure = Force / Area

As area drops, pressure increases. There is less area in contact with the ball than with the axis bar. I maintain that a block is the ideal design for a lock like this (isn't that what the Stop Lock is that's going on the Military 2?)

So whether the CBBL is going to completely fail first, I don't know for sure. But it is going to be easier to deform the ball and at the least cause play.
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The actual structural "load-bearing" capacity of a sphere is significantly higher than a cylinder because of the shape itself. There are far less likely to be any particular stress points on the sphere because the load is distributed perfectly across the sphere. On the other hand, the cylinder winds up having a lot of linear stress placed on to it. Even if a cylinder is only as long as its own diameter, then it's still going to be far more likely to split down the middle before a sphere ever chips or deforms.

On the other hand, I see the BB putting more force on other parts of the knife, which may be a more significant issue. For one thing, the extra pressure created by the point of the BB is going to cause more friction on moving parts, and then when you consider the pressures being exerted on working parts while compressive forces are being exerted on the knife then I would think that the knife parts would be more likely to fail than the BB. I forget Ankerson's video though... Did the BB completely shatter, or did it just come loose or what? Either way it would probably be likely that a company like Spyderco would realize that and make the BB out of something that wouldn't impart a lot of wear onto the other working knife parts.

I haven't seen a CBBL, but what I think makes the AXIS very unlikely to fail is that the pivot and the lock-bar span across the liners and wedge the tang between them. I think the actual frames of the liners would split before either the pivot or the lock-bar snapped.

Also, maybe this thread explains a little about the 520?

http://199.231.142.3/forums/showthread.php?t=380375
 
JNewell said:
Sal and Eric Glesser do. Sal posted, either here or at SF, a very, very general statement about the changes, but not in detail and not with any indication of timing.
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Here's what I have from multiple threads related to the Manix 2 fix.

From Eric G.
"After testing the Manix2, multiple overstrikes “in sequence” will destroy the lock. It wasn’t designed or intended for it and we don’t endorse it. We are making an immediate small improvement in the future production to withstand better in the multi overstrike, but again we’re not sure of the value of the test, unless it’s a destruction test."

"Recently we’ve gone to nylon patches on our screws for some knives. (M2) We’ve done this because we’re looking for consistency, reliability, ease of use. The nylon patch offers many of these things and grips well on retightening. We’re now looking at stronger patches to improve the grip over extreme use. "

From Sal G.
"As far as the Manix, there will be some adjustments made to the ball travel on the ramp. I don't think it's anhything you will be able to see, but the changes permit the model to take Mr. Ankerson's "overstrike test" and not defeat."

From what I hear, all these changes were implemented months ago to the Manix 2 line. Before the Cutlery Shoppe orange Manix 2 Sprint was started, I talked to Jeff about these upgrades. And he later told me that Spyderco assured him that the changes were already in place, including the Orange Sprint run.
 
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I think too much is made of lock strength these days.

I'm sure both knives are way stronger than I'll ever have need of.

However, the coil springs of the ball lock seem far less likely to fail.
 
I trust either one. The axis and BB lock are by far my favorite locking mechanisms. They provide a solid lockup and are ambidextrous and allow for the blade to be flicked open and closed- something I value greatly. I have complete confidence when using either even for heavy tasks. What scares me are liner locks and framelocks. They are much weaker and much more prone to failure.
 
Good (re)search putting those together! :thumbup:

dsmegst said:
Here's what I have from multiple threads related to the Manix 2 fix.

From Eric G.
"After testing the Manix2, multiple overstrikes “in sequence” will destroy the lock. It wasn’t designed or intended for it and we don’t endorse it. We are making an immediate small improvement in the future production to withstand better in the multi overstrike, but again we’re not sure of the value of the test, unless it’s a destruction test."

"Recently we’ve gone to nylon patches on our screws for some knives. (M2) We’ve done this because we’re looking for consistency, reliability, ease of use. The nylon patch offers many of these things and grips well on retightening. We’re now looking at stronger patches to improve the grip over extreme use. "

From Sal G.
"As far as the Manix, there will be some adjustments made to the ball travel on the ramp. I don't think it's anhything you will be able to see, but the changes permit the model to take Mr. Ankerson's "overstrike test" and not defeat."

From what I hear, all these changes were implemented months ago to the Manix 2 line. Before the Cutlery Shoppe orange Manix 2 Sprint was started, I talked to Jeff about these upgrades. And he later told me that Spyderco assured him that the changes were already in place, including the Orange Sprint run.
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Hi Nikkogi,

Both the Axis lock and the ball bearing lock are very sophisticated lock designs. In actual breaking tests, both locks are in the Very Heavy duty range (MBC - over 200 inch/lbs per inch of blade length).

sal
 
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