Benchmade Proper

[TedderX]

I know a line has to be drawn somewhere, but why are all slipjoints automatically considered traditional? For example I have a lockback that I think should be considered traditional, but isn't. Construction is done with pins. Material is traditional, with steel construction and jigged bone covers. But it is disqualified because it has two modern design elements -- a clip and a thumbstud. But the clip is so small and tight, it won't work even on the thinnest pair of summer slacks I own. And this being in the gent's knife class size, the thumbstud is pretty ineffective for one hand opening. It's just an alternative method of opening compared to the nail nick.

Perhaps it's superficial, but shouldn't looks and construction method be taken into account? Shouldn't a knife pass the eye test as well to be considered traditional? From where I'm standing the knife posted above is more traditional than the one in the OP, but only the Benchmade qualifies for this forum.

Personally, I would consider this traditional. But I also consider the Case Trapperlock traditional. It has a clip, thumbstud, and linerlock.

 

[supratentorial]

The way I see it, the only mammal that lays eggs is a platypus.

You're wrong.

You will never hear a pocketknife with a slipjoint called modern.

Also wrong. e.g. Spyderco UK pen knife.

From Spyderco: "We began refining the classic slip-joint pocket mechanism with a notched joint and added two Spyderco features that define the modern folding knife: a pocket clip for convenient carry and our Trademark Round Hole for easy, ambidextrous one-hand opening."

(Granted, I do realize that Case makes some locking blades that are still considered traditional).

Locking folding hunters have been around since the mid 1800s. Many of the features associated with modern knives have been around a long time... sometimes 100 years... or have precursors. Click link for some examples: http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...ipless-mnandi-qualify?p=16923740#post16923740

I'd recommend picking up a copy of Levine's Guide to Knives and Their Values. There's lots of good info about knives that you'll find helpful.

With respect to this Benchmade knife, it makes no difference at all to me whether we discuss it here or in general. A line has to be drawn somewhere and knife manufacturers are continually trying to blur that line. I support whatever Gary and Frank decide.

 

[Camillus]

the handle shape doesn't look traditional - too angular

 

[traumkommode]

It looks like it has potential to me, but I feel like this is an effort to pander to both crowds, and in effect, misses my want for a traditional slip joint. Traditional or not, for Pete's sake Benchmade, what is your gripe with full flat grind? On a blade of that dimensions, a saber grind doesn't make the knife tougher, because it's not a knife that needs to be tough.

If the Lionsteel barlow can have titanium, M390 steel and cooler pizazz, AND cost less money than this knife, I want to be turned on by the Proper more than I actually am turned on by it. Maybe getting one in hand would change my mind.

 

[KBA]

Please stay focused on the knife in question. This is not the place to discuss the company, their history, or their modern knives.

Edit:
Nevermind Im not that concerned as was mostly curious.
The answers will come when the situation occurs.

 

[Duper]

I think the product may gain some traction in European countries where there are strict restrictions on carrying lock back knives.

,,,Mike in Canada

 

[jrawk]

Some thoughts.

"A simple yet modern take on a classic gentleman's knife."

It doesn't say "A simple yet modern take on a traditional gentleman's knife. " Perhaps traditional and classic go hand in hand. But i seem to prefer the term classic knife instead of traditional knife. A traditional knife, to me, has always implied a design made to perform a specific task throughout history, i.e. split back whittler patterns are a traditionally used to whittle/carve/sculpt. Spey blades are traditionally used for livestock castration. But we can find plenty of counter-examples. What is the tradition behind a canoe pattern? Speaking of which, this Benchmade Proper reminds me the classic, large canoe shape, styled with more modern materials, trim, and design elements.

Lastly, knives like this Benchmade Proper and the LS European Barlow, call them traditional or classic or modern or whatever you want, they are ushering in some interesting new elements into production slip-joint elements such as internal stop pins to prevent blade rap, instead of utilizing a tang kick. What does that do the longevity of the blades life as sharpening occurs? I think the response naturally becomes better/tougher steel should prevent the necessity to constantly grind a new edge after a hard days work. Some will like that. Some wont. Whether that factors into what is considered Traditional or Classic or whatever. Eventually "modern" folders will become traditional. Like, try to explain to me what "alternative" rock music is now and tell me how modern alternative music belongs in the same genre as 80's and 90's alternative rock music?

 

[supratentorial]

Interesting post, jrawk. There are certainly knives designed for specific tasks but I don't think it is a defining feature of traditional knives. In particular, a "whittler" is a modern collector term. Knives that we now call whittlers were made in many different sizes, with different blades and handle shapes, etc. Advertisements for these knives range from a manicure knife to a knife for farming.

History is the defining feature of traditional knives. Some day what we now call modern, will become old.

 

[kamagong]

Some day what we now call modern, will become old.

That day is already here Jake. I know someone, a grandfather, who has carried either a Spyderco or a Benchmade for his entire adult life. Admittedly he is young for a grandfather, being only in his early 40s, but there are already a couple of generations that have seen their elders use nothing but knives with thumb studs/holes and pocket clips. For these folks, modern folders are entirely traditional.

Just a reminder that traditions are constantly changing.

 

[supratentorial]

I think the distinction will continue to be practical. Maybe the word "modern" will need to be replaced. Eventually everyone will carry lightsabers and all steel knives will be traditional.

 

[KBA]

Some thoughts.

"A simple yet modern take on a classic gentleman's knife."

It doesn't say "A simple yet modern take on a traditional gentleman's knife. " Perhaps traditional and classic go hand in hand. But i seem to prefer the term classic knife instead of traditional knife. A traditional knife, to me, has always implied a design made to perform a specific task throughout history, i.e. split back whittler patterns are a traditionally used to whittle/carve/sculpt. Spey blades are traditionally used for livestock castration. But we can find plenty of counter-examples. What is the tradition behind a canoe pattern? Speaking of which, this Benchmade Proper reminds me the classic, large canoe shape, styled with more modern materials, trim, and design elements.

Lastly, knives like this Benchmade Proper and the LS European Barlow, call them traditional or classic or modern or whatever you want, they are ushering in some interesting new elements into production slip-joint elements such as internal stop pins to prevent blade rap, instead of utilizing a tang kick. What does that do the longevity of the blades life as sharpening occurs? I think the response naturally becomes better/tougher steel should prevent the necessity to constantly grind a new edge after a hard days work. Some will like that. Some wont. Whether that factors into what is considered Traditional or Classic or whatever. Eventually "modern" folders will become traditional. Like, try to explain to me what "alternative" rock music is now and tell me how modern alternative music belongs in the same genre as 80's and 90's alternative rock music?

Semantics is always tricky. Yet, why would Benchmade even use the term "traditional"? It has been discussed before that the term "traditional" is mostly used here is it not?

I find the more I think about the need to define and label a knife according to sub-categories and definition, the less I enjoy the hobby.

 

[supratentorial]

I'm surprised how often the topic comes up. For the most part, separating the traditionals and modern knives seems simple enough to me. Just like separating egg laying mammals from others. I think it's become more of a challenge recently because there are a lot of folks who are new to traditional knives. It definitely shouldn't be complicated enough to ruin someone's enjoyment of knives. The quote from Spyderco above makes a pretty reasonable generalization with just a few words.

Separating the two definitely has some benefits. Remember back when there wasn't a separate forum for traditionals on the Exchange and you had to wade through hundreds of Spydercos and Benchmades to find them? I wouldn't want to go back to the old way. I use that only as an example of how the distinction can be practical, not to start discussing buying and selling.

 

[KBA]

Jake, Im not as educated as some but Im far from new to this. I just find myself caring less and less to the actual definition of either. They are what they are bc a group defined them as such. They are all knives imo and what takes the joy out of the hobby, for me, is having to segregate conversations on knives based on a given label. The old adage of buy what you like is true, but you have to talk about them elsewhere in subgroups.

Yet, we're no longer talking about the knife in focus

Edit: I find it humorous that you assumed that there was a struggle in defining a knife modern vs traditional that was lowering my joy of the hobby. 😜

 

[kamagong]

I understand your frustration Brett. But words and labels help us to communicate. Think about khukuris. When you use the term others know exactly what is meant, without you having to type up the much longer and wordier Nepalese recurve chopper.

I think it is important to be particular as words have meaning. These discussions, as annoying and joyless as they may be, keep us thinking and help us stave off the corrupting influence of murkiness. Look at the term bowie. No one knows what the original looked like, but what we do know is that it was a large knife with a 9" plus blade. But through the years everyone used the term to refer to everything from overbuilt straight backed choppers to folding knives with clip point blades. The term bowie has lost all meaning. I'm not saying that will happen here, but there is a reason for the semantics.

 

[KBA]

I understand your frustration Brett. But words and labels help us to communicate. Think about khukuris. When you use the term others know exactly what is meant, without you having to type up the much longer and wordier Nepalese recurve chopper.

I think it is important to be particular as words have meaning. These discussions, as annoying and joyless as they may be, keep us thinking and help us stave off the corrupting influence of murkiness. Look at the term bowie. No one knows what the original looked like, but what we do know is that it was a large knife with a 9" plus blade. But through the years everyone used the term to refer to everything from overbuilt straight backed choppers to folding knives with clip point blades. The term bowie has lost all meaning. I'm not saying that will happen here, but there is a reason for the semantics.

Brother I agree. I see your point. Im tempted to step on a soap box. I want to but it wouldn't help. I see the points made and will just move on.

 

[Cory Hess]

I agree completely, Brett. I think it's pretty silly to be pondering whether something is traditional or not. It's a knife. The arguments for putting it in one group or another are pretty silly as well. It looks like a zulu spear blade in a shadow canoe frame to me. Is this pairing historic? No, but neither is the Lanny's Clip or Zulu patterns and we don't have people arguing that those aren't traditional. Using screws in place of pins has come up before, and it has been pointed out that this has historical precedent and isn't a disqualifier. I appreciate that we have a subforum dedicated to traditional knives, but I find the nitpicking on what's a traditional and what's not tedious. It doesn't affect my enjoyment of the knives, but it does lower my enjoyment of the forum. I'd much prefer people just discuss the knife and let the moderators figure out which sub the discussion should be housed in.

As for the knife itself, it's not my cup of tea but I can see how it would appeal to some people. The grind doesn't look too different than what we see on many Northwoods knives, and people seem to enjoy them just fine. I've had a couple of knives with high flat grinds like this that sliced very well. I'm assuming it's a high flat and not a hollow grind. If it's a hollow grind it'll probably be a heck of a slicer. The blade looks short in comparison to the frame to me, but that could just be that the picture is taken at an odd angle.

I love the idea of a slipjoint that can be disassembled for cleaning and reassembled easily. I don't often find myself needing something like this, but there have been plenty of occasions where I would have used this option if it were available to me. Especially when I'm in a situation where my slipjoint gets wet, like when I'm camping in the rain, drop my knife in some mud, or use my knife to do a quick cleaning of a fish and just dip it and swirl it in the water to get the blood and guts off. In all of these situations I end up having to do a thorough cleaning when I get home and the ability to take down the knife and get it nice and cleaned and oiled before putting it back together and dropping it back in my pocket would be a huge plus in my book. As it stands these cleanings usually involve getting in there as good as I can and then dumping a bunch of oil in the well and working the action and then letting the knife sit on some paper towel while the excess oil drains between the liners and backsprings. This usually puts the knife out of commission for me for at least the rest of the day. It's pretty silly that it's easier to clean my handgun than my pocket knife.

I also applaud the introduction into another option of higher grade steels into the slipjoint world. 1095 is a fine steel for opening a letter or slicing some fruit, but it falls short in harder work. It seems that every six months or so I'm reminded that no knife made from 1095 qualifies as hard use in my world regardless of pattern. Most recently, I spent about 30 minutes breaking down cardboard boxes with my 21 Bull Buster. In my mind, a full sized sodbuster is a hard use knife that should be able to handle breaking down boxes. However, after about 20 minutes I was tearing the cardboard instead of cutting it and at half an hour I gave up on the job and left it unfinished. I've cut twice as much cardboard with D2 and CPM-154 and never had a problem. I know that we all get nostalgic about 1095, but having more options of better steels in knives that don't fetch several hundred dollars is a big plus to me.

Ultimately, I don't think that this knife is a good value for me. It's a knife I wouldn't turn my nose up at, but for the price I could get something that holds more appeal to me. I find that this is true of many of Benchmade's offerings. Maybe I'll pick one up on the secondary market at some point down the line.

 

[black mamba]

No set of rules is perfect, but I'm glad we have them defined. By our rules, the Proper is traditional, but it's not for me. Maybe it is an unflattering viewing angle, but the blade looks "off" to me, and I don't care for the little nick at all.

 

[Peregrin]

If we didn't try and define traditional and modern, we might as well close this sub-forum. Folks could post in the General or Custom knives sub-forums. Not my call though.

 

[neal70]

Has anyone noticed the new Jesse Jarosz Apple Jack, posted up on Knifecenter? An interesting take on slipjoints, ubiquitous bottle opener notwithstanding, constructed with aeb-l steel and screws? Lovely knife, would probably be allowed here, even with the "scagel hole" opener.
Thanks, Neal

 

[supratentorial]

Has anyone noticed the new Jesse Jarosz Apple Jack, posted up on Knifecenter? An interesting take on slipjoints, ubiquitous bottle opener notwithstanding, constructed with aeb-l steel and screws? Lovely knife, would probably be allowed here, even with the "scagel hole" opener.
Thanks, Neal

Aside from the bottle opener...The handle shape is basically an interpretation of the very popular folding hunter made by Remington and many others.... and then made even more popular by Jess Horn... and more recently by the many companies that produce both traditional and modern variations. Discussing it here or in general forum is up to Frank and Gary but there's somewhere to discuss it.

If he drops the bottle opener and switches to a full flat grind, I'd be tempted to buy one. The bottle opener looks like it might be more trouble than it would be worth to me.... possibly getting snagged on stuff, etc.