Best carry system for long knife

Well,

I did something yesterday that I thought quite interesting...I hung a roast and clipped it in half with one #1 cut, diagonally through a roast as big around as a loaf of bread...was it all the way in half? No...it would have been if it had been a horizontal cut, however. There was about 1 1/2 inches of meat left holding it. It was free-hanging by a piece of 550 Cord. It is fast.

Jerry supplied it with a utility edge, I brushed it up a tiny bit with a Fine Spyderco ProFiler.

This is an emergency amputation device.
 
A man, a wicked fast, sharp knife and a swinging side of beef...Ahhh, ain't love grand!

------------------
Gaucho

Tuvo muy mala suerte...se callo en mi cuchillo.


[This message has been edited by Gaucho (edited 26 October 1999).]

[This message has been edited by Gaucho (edited 26 October 1999).]
 
Matt,

Please describe the Millenium Megafighter in graphic detail.

------------------
Gaucho

Tuvo muy mala suerte...se callo en mi cuchillo.


 
Don,

COOL!!! Sounds like it will more than do the job if necessary...

------------------
Attila
 
Gaucho,

Unbuckle you belt, and kick back.

The Mega-Millennium is designed in such a way to insure the balance and speed of the knife. The fulcrum and point of absolute balance is across the top of the guard. That means that the tip of this mighty 14" blade will be faster than a mongoose on methamphetamines.

It has much the same overall shape as the Mellennium series, but with three quickly noticeable differences. First,the butt of the knife is still a "skull crusher" but the absolute point of the pommel is more in line with the spine than the point. Second, the blade is rounded where the regular Millennium is angular. The point is still exactly in line with the center of the handle for accurate thrusting. The third difference is the guard is rounded across the top where the regular Millennium is flat, on the Mega it's curved, and comes to a point, curving down gently cradling the index finger. Aaaaaah.

I like my knives pointy, really, really pointy. Jerry's knives have points on them like an icepick that thinks it's a hypodermic needle. Especially mine. This baby's going to be one sexy slicin'-stabbin-cuisinart-automatic-O'-death. On top of that, we're trying to find a large enough chunk of ancient bone for the handle, engraving on the bolster, and a fancy tooled sheath by Sandy Morissey, an artist who does Jerry's leather. It'll probably be a while before it's ready.

If you'd like, I'd be glad to send you a rough picture of the cutout of the prototype blade (it has a 12.5 blade rather than 14), as well as a .jpg of my matched-pair beauties.

This monster's gonna slice beef like nobody's business.

Matt

[This message has been edited by Zog (edited 24 October 1999).]
 
Matt,

Man, I'm droolin'! The modifications you've made to the Millenium Bowie design sound right on target. Since seeing the knife for the first time on Hossum's website, I've felt that the blade needed a little more belly to enhance slicing.

I'd love to see pics of your design and of your two paired beauties. I'll E-mail you my fax # privately for the design drawings. I hope you don't mind if I boggart your design when I have Hossum make me a 12" blade version
smile.gif
.

By the way, to update everyone, I've just ordered a riggercoated V-stat sheath configured for both SB3/Associate, and an SB3 carry system from Jim. When my little Warhawk hatches, he'll be sent right over to Jim's evil laboratory for outfitting with the latest stealth technology.

Now the only problem is surviving the wait!



------------------
Gaucho

Tuvo muy mala suerte...se callo en mi cuchillo.




[This message has been edited by Gaucho (edited 26 October 1999).]
 
I went to visit Don a couple of weekends ago and I got to see the Hossom Bowie in person. This is one crazy blade!

The knife is huge but when you pick it up it feels like it weighs less than a pound. Is is very quick in the hand with cuttin thrusting, turning and multidirectional attacking. Florretes or redondos can just be fired off one after another with this knife. The back cut from this blade or even an abanico are very quick and deceptive.

Not to mention that it's very, very sharp.

Jason
 
Listen, since we're on the topic of bowies anyway, do any of you have experience with Black Cloud knives offerings- eg., the 5th generation bowie? Keating is so hot on Black Cloud's stuff that I wonder how it compares to Hossum's.

------------------
Gaucho

Tuvo muy mala suerte...se callo en mi cuchillo.


 
Guacho,

Hey man, anything you and Jerry come up with is going to be unique. I'll go ahead and send you some .jpgs to get your juices flowing. Mrs. Guacho doesn't even realize she's bought you your Christmas present yet!

Matt
 
Yahoo! I've figured out how to create the smiley faces
biggrin.gif
!

You know...it never fails to amaze me what you can accomplish if you just read the f***ing directions.



------------------
Gaucho

Tuvo muy mala suerte...se callo en mi cuchillo.


 
Well, I just got back from the big Wannamakers Gun & Knife Show in Tulsa and had been wondering why my ears were burning all weekend long. Now I know. Thanks Zog and Don for the kind remarks.

Zog, your new Millennium-2 at the moment has a 14-1/2" blade and is 21" overall. It's one big knife! I've never balanced a blade that big or even seen one that was, but I think we can get pretty close. The key will be not making the handle so heavy that it overcomes the advantage of balance. A well-balanced boat anchor is not a good solution either.

I have to admit it is very gratifying to see my Millennium recognized by highly competent users for the qualities that I tried to achieve. I've always felt a big and very fast knife would make a good combat knife, but lacking martial art skills of my own, I could only imagine how it would be used.

I'd like to comment on a couple issues.

Steels. In my judgement ATS-34 is hard to beat. I know A-2 is a hot item now, and there are other steels that get good press, but ATS-34 when it is heat treated properly (I use Paul Bos in CA; he's the best and gets Rc60-61 with very fine grain structure in ATS) there are few steels that can measure up in all the qualities you want in a steel. One fact about steels known to most knifemakers is that stainless steel is tough. If you look in a tool supply catalog, you see that cutting tools are graded by what they can be used to cut. In almost all cases, the toughest of these are those tools designed to cut stainless steel. It is a very tough family of steels. A-2 is an air-hardening tool steel with about 5% chrome to reduce corrosion. (ATS has about 14% chrome) A-2 is very easy to work, easy to harden to about Rc58-61, and is generally a nice steel. It has 0.25% vanadium which gives it some added toughness, but I don't think it is as "tough" as ATS in actual use, and is likely more brittle. A much better steel is D-2. D-2 has 0.8% vanadium, plus additional components found in ATS-34 and 12% chrome. On balance D-2 is much tougher to work with than A-2, produces a tougher blade, and is more corrosion resistant.

Edge: As Don noted my tactical blades are delivered with a utility edge that is not razor sharp but will withstand quite a lot of abuse. Since Don educated me a bit on the benefits of "sharp" even in a big knife, I can provide whatever edge someone wants. It really is a trade-off between impact resistance and sharpness. A fine edge will break more easily, regardless of the steel used. Having said all that, the exact shape of the edge, regardless of sharpness will mitigate its cutting capacity and impact resistance.

Bill Moran, who knows as much about knife edges as anyone, argues that a convex edge is best for cutting and edge holding (He modestly calls it the "Moran Edge") It is like the edge of a saber, but more keen. In my next batch of knives (including Zog's monster and a little gem I'm making for Don to experiment with) I intend to experiment with this edge and see if we can up the ante on this issue. I'll post my findings.

OK, I've talked enough. As you can see, I know something about knives, blades and steels, but squat about knife fighting. I welcome all the advice I can get and am happy to experiment. Thanks again for the nice remarks

Jerry Hossom

------------------
Jerry Hossom
knifemaker
 
Don, That 1-1/2" of the roast that didn't get cut has been eating at me like a worm in an apple. Then I try to tell myself that, unlike heavier blades that get added impact from the weight, the Millennium's cut was all edge and stroke. That almost works but not quite. Then I tell myself that it was a pretty big roast after all. That didn't work either.

Send it back! I want that knife to go through that roast and I'll make it do that if it kills me. I'll pay the postage.

I am curious though. How many inches of meat did it actually cut through?

------------------
Jerry Hossom
knifemaker
 
Jerry,

Way to go, Man!

It is the sign of a true master never to be completely satisfied with past accomplishments, but to forever reach and strain for that next centimeter of skill that brings him that much closer to perfection.



------------------
Gaucho

Tuvo muy mala suerte...se callo en mi cuchillo.




[This message has been edited by Gaucho (edited 02 November 1999).]
 
Jerry,

The roast was about 6 inches thick, and true to my cheapskate form, I bought a cheap roast, which meant it was tough! It was dense, and the knife performed as intended, I did not warm up, I hung it and I took a swat at it. It was not a chop or hacking wack, it was a massive, slashing draw cut.

The cut was diagonal, which means that it cut about 8-9 inches of meat, through and through. I also caught it where the serrations end and the straight edge begins. Like I said, if I had hit it horizontal, it would have clipped it, if I had hit it closer to the guard, it would have clipped it. This as well as ZOG's GREAT review in the Review Forum shows that this size blade equals massive shearing power. It performed as intended and if it can perform better, but it was nothing you did! This was not a failure! I took a whipping draw cut at it, cold with no warm up. I like that.

As you said, you supplied a working edge and I just wanted to get the most power I could to push the envelope, for an all-around survival and fighting knife, I would prefer your edge, where you might have to hack down saplings for a shelter, etc...in short, this thing cuts as aggressive as it looks. I want to try and get a full-edge cut on denim with the serrations too, that is coming.
 
Don,

Thanks for the reply, and the encouragement. I think you may have just proven something I suspected but had not thought of a way of testing. The Millennium blade's sharp angle at 20-35% back from the point creates a very large single serration that does what all serration's do; it changes the blade's angle of attack, acting almost simultaneously as both an edge and a point. This dramatically increases the penetration of slicing motions. Had the edge been a continuous smooth arc, I think the blade would have stalled much sooner and the cut would not have been as deep. I'm still guessing a little here, but it seems to make sense.

Now that you've tested the carving knife you'll have to try the steak knives too.

I'll be interested to know how you plan to carry the Millennium Bowie. At 17" from point to pommel, not many people are big enough to use the rig that Zog uses with his...

Jerry Hossom

Why do I feel that the number of times you edit is like a report card. 1 edit is a B-, 2 edits is a D+, etc...

[This message has been edited by GaKnife (edited 01 November 1999).]

[This message has been edited by GaKnife (edited 01 November 1999).]
 
Jerry :

One fact about steels known to most knifemakers is that stainless steel is tough. If you look in a tool supply catalog, you see that cutting tools are graded by what they can be used to cut. In almost all cases, the toughest of these are those tools designed to cut stainless steel.
Click to expand...

When the description says stainless steel the other type, ie. the non-stainless is a mild steel not a tool steel like A2. Mild steel is very easy to cut up or drill through, tool steels like A2, D2, M2 etc. are not. In any case, drilling resistance does not correlate to toughness. D2 at 64 RC would be very difficult to drill through but it would not be very tough. Toughness is the ability to resist fracture under violent impacts. ATS-34 is not a tough steel, it is actually more brittle than 440C.

-Cliff
 
Well, we've certainly opened a can of worms here now. Cliff, I have to disagree with you on a couple points. The tool cataloge are generally referring to both mild steels and non-hardened tool steels. Stainless generally work-hardens more easily than either and is therefore more demanding on cutting tools. Ask any engraver about 304 Stainless; most refuse to work with it, yet it is technically a mild, low carbon stainless.

Toughness in everything I've read usually refers to wear and abrasion resistance (edge holding). In that context D-2 at Rc-64 is about as tough as they get. I use it as face plates on the platens of my grinders. In my previous comment, I was referring to it in the context of difficulty in machining.

Impact resistance is another thing altogether, and that gets into a lot of metalurgical issues I don't pretend to understand, but grain structure, carbide types, heterogeneity, and bunch of other things enter into that equation.

As for the impact resistance of ATS-34, properly heat-treated, I'd sure like to see the data that shows it yielding to 440C. I set my bolster pins using a 4# sledge hammer and all the impact I can muster. I have yet to have a Paul Bos treated blade break on me. I did however have a couple blades snap when I was treating my own, which is why I don't do that anymore. The primary reason ATS-34 gets less than rave reviews is that it is seldom properly heat-treated. Heat treating stainless tool steels is far more complex than heat treating normal tool steels which harden at 1400-1600F compared to 1950-1975 for ATS-34. Failure to stress relieve ATS-34 at 1500F for an hour will result in brittle steel. Cryogenic quenching for 8 hours, before drawing the temper, will refine grain structure and make an entirely different steel than ommitting that step or performing it after tempering. Most of my knives get used; they are hunters, cutting hides, bone, flesh and the occassional hunter. I measure my blades in the number of animals they will dress, skin and butcher. Most will still shave after 4-5 Whitetails.

But if you want to get really tough, I challenge anyone to find something meaner than CPM-420V or even 440V. Both are stainless steels and both are tough in any context you want to compare them in. Having said all that, I'm a full-time custom knifemaker. I'll use whatever steel the customer wants. I just think ATS-34 has gotten a bum rap. It's a very good steel by any measure.
 
"Toughness in everything I've read usually refers to wear and
abrasion resistance (edge holding)."

That's the source of the confusion -- toughness is a question of how many times can you stress it before it breaks, as by bending it back and forth or striking it. Toughness has some correlation with edgeholding, as one wear mechanism is the breaking of tiny chips from the edge, but other qualities usually dominate, hardness etc. (BTW, the toughest known material is metallic calcium ... you can't make a knife out of it, though; it's too soft.)

The stainless steels are notoriously poor in toughness (due to chromium weakening crystal boundaries), though some are worse than others, of course.

You might have a look at the FAQs at this website, especially the Steels FAQ -- go back to the home page and click on "features." The Shop Talk forum has a good deal of discussion on steels, too.

-Cougar Allen :{)
 
Jerry :

Toughness in everything I've read usually refers to wear and abrasion resistance
Click to expand...

As Cougar noted, that is the main reason for differing viewpoints. I would be curious to know who is refering to toughness like that, it is certaintly not the usage from a materials point of view. Toughness is very basically the ability to absorb energy before fracture.

As for 440V and 420V, I have blades in several CPM steels including the more wear resistance ones like 10V and 420V. Their toughness is easily under 440C or D2 and is not even in the same league as A2. See CPM's spec sheets for more detailed information :

http://www.physics.mun.ca:80/~sstamp/knives/index.html

-Cliff
 
This is interesting. I feel like I've entered another world. I understand the desireability of impact resistance, but in the gerneral parlance of the trade I'm in, toughness has always been taken to mean, "It's tough to work" or "It holds an edge well." I'm certainly happy to learn, but I also find there are other attributes of steels that are important to most users as well. Edge to edge impact is not too high on most lists there. In a world of swords, I can see that it might be, and for that use and purpose I'd find A-2 quite acceptable. It certainly is a fairly cheap and easy-to-work steel. Ironically, I've had a billet in my shop for years and never bothered to work with it. I'll have to do that.



------------------
Jerry Hossom
knifemaker
www.hossom.com

 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top