Best Corrosion Resistant EDC Steel - 14C28N ?

tilopa said:
I'm moving to Fiji for an extended period and would like to take an EDC folding knife with me. Obviously Fiji is very humid with salty air yet you might be surprised at just how quickly things rust/corrode there. Short of getting a dive knife I want the best corrosion resistive steel for a folding knife. In researching the following steels: 440C, Aus 8, CPM-154, S30V, S35VN, M390 and 14C28N, it seems that the best for corrosion resistant is the 14c28n.

My conclusion comes from my research and some assumptions, and I have very little experience or knowledge about knives so I am asking a question rather than making a statement and hoping some of you with more knowledge can educate me. The reason that I believe the 14c28n is best is because if I look at the composition of all these steels and compare them to the known highly corrosive resistant dive knife metals like H1, N680, X15TN I see a pattern where the Carbon content is low, the Chromium is high and there is a bit of Nitrogen added. The 14c28n has similar properties whereas the other steels do not.

Any input is appreciated.
Click to expand...

michaelm466 said:
H1, x15tn, and n680 are the top three in that order, as far as edge retention, reverse the order. Besides those three the others you mention should all do well, I know m390 is very corrosion resistant as well. If you go with h1 serrated models will be harder at the edge and give you noticeably better edge retention compared to the plain edge.
Click to expand...

What Michael said.
H1 is the most corrosion resistant, but holds an edge the least well. Serrated models are said to be better in edge retention.

N680 holds an edge well and is very corrosion resistant, but is not as corrosion resistant as H1. Benchmade's Lone Wolf series has a lot of models in N680, or did last time I looked.
 
Its more finish than steel, of course you need a decent stainless like any of the ones you mentioned but you need it in satin or mirror finish, bead blast finish even in the best stainless is going to expedite the corrosion process. For the record bead blast is a finish not a coating as you referenced in one of your post here. Coatings are going to wear off, chip, etc. so depending upon the finish underneath which is usually bead blast to help the material comprising the coating adhere better to the blade. Well you get the point. So ditch the coatings and just get a decent stainless with satin or mirror finish and you should be ok. I hunt, fish, and in south Louisiana and satin or mirror finished stainless will take care of you with minimal maintenance. Bead blast is going to rust, period.
 
tilopa said:
I'd like to stay under $150 but if I saw something really nice I could go up to $200.





Yes, all the high end salt water dive knives from Spyderco, Benchmade, etc, use these steels, but I don't want a dive knife, I want a folder, and I need to keep it in my price range. And the knifes I'm looking at from Benchmade, Spyderco, Kershaw, Zero Tolerance, use the steels I have listed in my original post, so I am trying to find the best in that list.
Click to expand...

Well, the steels listed such as H1, x15tn, and n680 are available in folders and are not solely designed as dive knives.

The Pacific Salt, Salt one from Spyderco are great EDC folders. The Benchmade Griptilian is a folder and all of these have a reputation as great EDC knives.

The knives I mentioned is also less then your budget.

Another thing to consider is if Spring Assisted knives are legal in Fiji.

Take note, we are not trying to steer you away from your initial identification of steels, but rather trying to give some advice on things available you might not have considered yet.

14C28N has good corrosion resistance, but H-1 has an incredible history of corrosion resistance.
 
I currently live in one of the most corrosive environments I can think of in the caribbean coast of Costa Rica. It is actually probably comparable to Fiji. The life span of electronics, leathers, fabrics, and nearly anything decomposable is greatly reduced. I have carried my H1 salt spyderedge daily for over a year here. That includes taking it diving, surfing, jungle hiking and fishing. It has held up like a champ. Not one sign of corrosion. It does need more frequent touch ups to keep the edge keen than some other steels, but with well worth it. I also have some harder use carbon steel blades here. I have patina'd them and try to keep them oiled. I still occasionally find corrosion. My vote is for H1.
 
marthinus said:
Well, the steels listed such as H1, x15tn, and n680 are available in folders and are not solely designed as dive knives.

The Pacific Salt, Salt one from Spyderco are great EDC folders. The Benchmade Griptilian is a folder and all of these have a reputation as great EDC knives.

The knives I mentioned is also less then your budget.

Another thing to consider is if Spring Assisted knives are legal in Fiji.

Take note, we are not trying to steer you away from your initial identification of steels, but rather trying to give some advice on things available you might not have considered yet.

14C28N has good corrosion resistance, but H-1 has an incredible history of corrosion resistance.
Click to expand...

Wow, I made some assumptions that were totally off. Thanks all for pointing me to the Spyderco Salt and the Benchmades that use the N680, I didn't even know those were out there. I assumed those steels were only used in non folder dive knives, and expensive. I just checked out the Salt and Benchmade triage, the Salt is under $100 and the triage under $150. I'm sure I'll get something in the H1 or N680 now. Though I'm sure those steels won't take as much abuse or hold an edge like the others, corrosion resistance has got to be my top priority were I'm going.
 
Last edited:
The heat treat can also affect the amount of free chrome in a steel so a steel, say 154cm, can be heat treated for maximum wear resistance, or have another heat treat schedule that will give it greater toughness, or corrosion resistance. Typically the heat treat protocols of the manufacturers are not available to you ( or competitors) so just because you had a steel in X brand perform one way doesn't mean it will perform the same from Y manufacturer. The type and grit of the finish will also change how that steel behaves for you corrosion wise as has been stated.

If you really want a trouble free, long term rust free knife it's very difficult to beat the SALT knives from Spyderco for the price. The locks, springs, grips, etc. are all designed and speced with corrosion resistance in mind. The H1 steel is very easy to sharpen, and you will need too sharpen it. :)

Serrations being put on H1 work hardens the H1 up a couple points of hardness supposedly ( I haven't measured myself but do know it to be true to my satisfaction ) so the knives do perform well in serrated versions. It's a fairly tough steel too and it isn't as common to see chipped off or broken serrations in H1 as some others.

It would be my choice for long term use in hot, corrosive conditions where care would be pretty much nonexistent to scarce. S30V does fine in corrosive environments with basic care too, as do other steels as mentioned. Pick a knife you like taking the whole picture into consideration.

Don't overlook regular ( for here where we tend to demand performance from knives and steels) cutlery steels though unless you are going to be living in a lean too on the beach or something similar. With steels like S30V just rinsing off the salt/acids and wiping down with a clean dry cloth should lessen corrosion. Add a silicone cloth wipe down afterward and you should be pretty good . Make sure to rinse off your other items as needed also, like sharpeners ( I use small DMT diamond folding mini stones on trips, coarse and Xcoarse, with seperate ones for stainless or alloy/carbon, and especially Titanium blades should have their own dedicated stone), mini screwdrivers or torx. Silicone cloths can be found in the gun & knife cleaning section of the sporting goods sections at big box stores. If you fly with those be aware some have a bit of light oils so they may get sniffed out by bomb detecting gear though I'm not sure how that would work. You could always mail it to where you plan to be ahead of time though.

Titanium bladed knives are available for extreme conditions but I'm not getting into them as IMO this isn't really needed. There are tradeoffs with Titanium, as with anything though. They are not for everybody.

Good luck.

Joe
 
Last edited:
Vanax, from Bohler-Uddeholm. Period. Same corrosion resistance as 3xx grade stainless steels, with roughly same edge holding as S3xVx .
 
Blade finish is also really important.

Whatever folder you get I'd also recommend bringing a SAK you like. They are made of a stainless steel and have a mirror polish that makes them incredibly resistant to corrosion.

Also will probably skate by any knife laws.
 
This post is a couple months old and the OP is probably already in Fiji.

But something I have seen mentioned multiple times and is not true, is that DLC protects against corrosion.

Rust will 'grow' right through a DLC coating. I don't know how much corrosion can occur before pitting happens and the DLC comes off. Look at Spyderco's website. They mention that DLC is for concealing the blade and nothing about corrosion resistance. There are also many companies that apply it and none will claim corrosion resistance.
 
+1
My understanding is that TiAlN will prevent corrosion, instead.

FlaMtnBkr said:
This post is a couple months old and the OP is probably already in Fiji.

But something I have seen mentioned multiple times and is not true, is that DLC protects against corrosion.

Rust will 'grow' right through a DLC coating. I don't know how much corrosion can occur before pitting happens and the DLC comes off. Look at Spyderco's website. They mention that DLC is for concealing the blade and nothing about corrosion resistance. There are also many companies that apply it and none will claim corrosion resistance.
Click to expand...
 
DLC coating benefits:

Wear and abrasion resistance
Low Friction
High Hardness
Anti-reflective Coating
Corrosion Resistance
Gas Barrier
Conformal Coating

Source: diamonex.com
 
marthinus said:
DLC coating benefits:

Wear and abrasion resistance
Low Friction
High Hardness
Anti-reflective Coating
Corrosion Resistance
Gas Barrier
Conformal Coating

Source: diamonex.com
Click to expand...

+1

dlc'd 1080 doesn't rust, while 1080 rusts like crazy just being exposed to air.


just my personal experiences but anything Ive used so far doesn't rust when dlc is applied. I could be not using it in extreme enough conditions, but Ive never seen it on my dlc blades.

I would like to see more information and maybe a video/pictures of someone's knife that is dlc'd with rust...............I can be convinced :D
 
Not so simple, mate.
Tipically DLC coating is applied with PVD techinque, which calls for temperatures roughly speaking around 350°C. First it must be checked this temperature is compliant with tempering temperature. As a matter of facts there are NOT so many stainless steels tempered above 350°C and yet holding a decent toughness value (say >=35J): Elmax, M390 (maybe), CPM SxxVx and SxxxV are off.
More carbon steels are into this requisite: CPM-M4, CPM-3V, Vanadis 4E, Vanadis 23
Another problem is that DLC coating alone will be tipically 1-5microns thick and will perform an hardness of only 1000-1500HV (tipically, as it could deliver even 7000HV, willing to spend more for the coating than for a custom knife itself)
http://www.sulzer.com/en/Products-and-Services/Coating-Services/DLC-Coatings/Processes/PVD

If you use plasma-arc nitriding you can get the double the depth per single layer (up to 10micron), more the double hardness (up to 4000HV, tipically TiAlN reaches 2800-3300HV) and you're able to coat even at 180°C, which is compatible with a far broader range of steels.
Here PA-CVD is used. Plasma Assisted CVD: CVD alone would require temperature in the 700-1000°C range.

So in the end, choose the steel for your meant use before having to get back to a coating, whichever it is. Proper finish is mandatory: mirror. What it is inside should also not be prone to rust: screws etc. Keep it clean and dry as much as possible. I use Marine Tuf-Glide and Marine Tuf-Cloth without any issue at all even with CPM-M4.
But if you have to go in a heavily salted + humid area there is only one viable solution (in stainless steels): Vanax.





marthinus said:
DLC coating benefits:

Wear and abrasion resistance
Low Friction
High Hardness
Anti-reflective Coating
Corrosion Resistance
Gas Barrier
Conformal Coating

Source: diamonex.com
Click to expand...
 
I've used knives and firearms for that matter in a salt water environment for many years and the bottom line is as long as you wipe the blade clean occasionally and keep it lightly oiled you won't have any problems.

I used and still use Break-Free CLP and would oil my blade, then if it got wet or after a day or two if it didn't (Knives can rust just sitting in your pocket in the Caribbean or Atlantic) I'd wipe and clean it with CLP or fresh water if it got really wet with salt water then dry. Then apply a thin coat of CLP / oil and this worked very well for me.

If your willing to take a few minutes every couple of days to clean and oil your blades you can basically use any steel you want and you'll be fine.

The knives I had back then were mostly ATS-34, 440C, and 154CM and to a much lessor extent AUS-8A. I'd say of the group 440C was the most stain resistant and AUS-8A the least but like I said if you are regularly cleaning and oiling your blade it doesn't matter all that much.



Best of luck.
 
Last edited:
daberti said:
But if you have to go in a heavily salted + humid area there is only one viable solution (in stainless steels): Vanax.
Click to expand...

Nope, Nitrobe 77 or H-1 :p


:D

Just pulling your leg a bit mate. Vanax, though good, is not the only steels using Nitrogen to such a large degree. I mentioned two above and here are some others.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...test-report-for-high-nitrogen-steel-HNS-Yushu

http://steirereisen.at/joomla/images/files/datenblatt_cronidur30_.pdf

http://www.ntn-snr.com/group/fr/en-en/file.cfm?contentID=1155

http://tv.baosteel.com/web/plc/xptj/martensitic_stainless_steel.pdf

Also 14C28N is applicable

DLC does have some good corrosion resistance properties in certain applications, it is however, not a magic solution I agree.

http://surface.nimte.ac.cn/way/uploadfiles/20125/20125493219759.pdf

http://www.cmprnews.co.uk/tecvac/dlctech1.pdf

http://www.azom.com/article.aspx?ArticleID=4125

http://scholar.uwindsor.ca/etd/470/

IMO one of the best coatings available is simple care, and I love the ones used by Swamp Rat and ESSEE.
 
Last edited:
I didn't see what your budget was, but Spyderco folders in H1 steel sounds like what you might want. I have never seen anyone be able to make H1 rust without the use of harsh chemicals. Someone tried to in a hot salt water fog tank for weeks and nothing happened.
 
No, I'm not and even

Tough I admit Nitrobe 77 will be pretty much corrosion resistant (and lets just throw Yushu in the number), you're missing something IMHO.

C 0.1 V 0.1 Cr 14.5 Mo 3 N 0.90 Nb 0.50 this is Nitrobe 77
C 0.2 V 2.8 Cr 20 Mo 2.50 N 1.90 this is Vanax

Add this

There is simply NO WAY Nitrobe 77 will have same corrosion resistance. Vanax has 5.5% more Cr and more than double N (with N/C ratio being roughly the same for both steels). All Cr in Vanax is left free in solid solution (with mentioned HT), would it be the same (all Cr in solid solution) for Nitrobe 77 it would be far lesser anyway.
There is no way Nitrobe 77 could ever have the same edge holding as well, having such a poor a content of V and Nb that it definitely won't form as much as harder phase MN nitrides than Vanax if any. More probably will have 5% or alike softer M2N nitrides.
Same is valid for H1, N680, 14C28N and fellows.
I suspect that even Des knows this ;)

In the link are mentioned Vanax 75 and Vanax 35. The first has been retired from Bohler, but Kershaw made an L.E. knife with a composite blade where the cutting edge was made out of Vanax 75 ;)
Here I'm comparing Latrobe 77 and Vanax 35 which now is Vanax.

My legs are not pulled mate they've just to follow my head, which is insanely prone to being ahead (not ahead of your own) as Elliot Williamson knows :) Maybe he hates me for that...
marthinus said:
Nope, Nitrobe 77 or H-1 :p


:D

Just pulling your leg a bit mate. Vanax, though good, is not the only steels using Nitrogen to such a large degree. I mentioned two above and here are some others.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...test-report-for-high-nitrogen-steel-HNS-Yushu

http://steirereisen.at/joomla/images/files/datenblatt_cronidur30_.pdf

http://www.ntn-snr.com/group/fr/en-en/file.cfm?contentID=1155

http://tv.baosteel.com/web/plc/xptj/martensitic_stainless_steel.pdf

Also 14C28N is applicable

DLC does have some good corrosion resistance properties in certain applications, it is however, not a magic solution I agree.

http://surface.nimte.ac.cn/way/uploadfiles/20125/20125493219759.pdf

http://www.cmprnews.co.uk/tecvac/dlctech1.pdf

http://www.azom.com/article.aspx?ArticleID=4125

http://scholar.uwindsor.ca/etd/470/

IMO one of the best coatings available is simple care, and I love the ones used by Swamp Rat and ESSEE.
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
the nonsensical thing about coatings as corrosion resistance is that they do not protect the only thing that can be immediately affected by corrosion: the edge.

a few corrosion spots on the side of the blade from a day or two of no care do not hurt a thing. However the edge dulling because of corrosion obviously affects immediate performance. Granted a quick stropping will fix it right up.

Vikings crossed the seas in small ships and they somehow managed to keep their simple carbon steels from disintegrating...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top