Best steel AUS6 or 440C

Cliff Stamp said:
In terms of the heavier things like hammering, prying, toughness, etc., AUS-6A and in general lower carbon and simpler alloy steels are the better choices. Edge retention is a complicated issue and there are ways for which AUS-6A would have superior edge retention than 440C. In general when you start thinking of a knife as more as a general purpose tool and not a precision cutting instrument, you move away from steels designed to cut things (W1, M2, etc.) and towards steels designed to take impacts and in general be very durable (L6, A8, S7, etc.).

-Cliff
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Definitely appreciate your thoughtfully parsed answer to the original question -

But if the question was which bladesteel would you rather have on your edc, if you had one edc, 440C or AUS 6, what would your answer be?
 
Here is one page that goes over the steels in an easy to understand explanation.
http://www.ebladestore.com/articles/steel-alloys.shtml
Aus6, 8 and 10 match up respectively with 440A B and C.
Application matters. I think 440a/aus6 would be better in a wet environment.
I dont have a lot of experience with steels but somtimes it may be nitpicking small differences.

AUS6/440A isnt a bad steel is it guys? Maybe not quite as good as 440C in all respects but its not like you cant rely on something made with 440A. Am i wrong?
 
440-C is a great steel for general knife use. The AUS is also good. Which is better? Impossible to say because so much depends on the way the steel was heat treated and the design of the knife. It's grind, handle, locks, etc. A crummy designed knife with great steel is still a crummy knife.

Here is a techy link really designed for knife makers who heat treat their blades. It does have some good info and comparisons.

http://www.ajh-knives.com/metals.html

Here is a chart that is from the CPM guys that graphs out (1) toughness, and (2) edge holding ability.

http://www.crucibleservice.com/datash/dsknifemaker.pdf
 
eyeeatingfish
thank you for the article on the differents of blade steel.I'ts all very confusing to us newbie's.I like Randall made knives and I heard they use 440a steel on there stainless steel knifes.For the price maybe they could use something better?I think there still great knives and I'll buy them when I can afford them.(which is not very often)
PJ
 
The AUS alloys have more in common with the Sandvik steels than the 440 series, the lower chromium and small amount of vanadium changes the nature of the steel significantly, and many feel they are better knife steels for several reasons, see Verhoeven's work for details.

rifon2 said:
But if the question was which bladesteel would you rather have on your edc, if you had one edc, 440C or AUS 6, what would your answer be?
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I would pick 440C in most cases for a small utility knife for precision cutting. I tend to do more slicing than fine push cutting usually. For a larger blade for wood working and general utility I would start to drift towards AUS-6A. It depends a lot on what you do. I gave my brother a Pacific Salt H1 months back, and it is one of the few folders I have seen him carry which is always sharp and never shows visible edge damage. His EDC gets really heavy use through construction work and does thinks like cut metals, cut/scrape caulking off of concrete, etc. . It works much better for him than S30V for example in terms of functional edge retention. S30V just takes too much edge damage and its wear resistance is of no use because the edge cracks off.

patrickjames said:
I like Randall made knives and I heard they use 440a steel ...
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440B.

-Cliff
 
Cliff Stamp said:
I would pick 440C in most cases for a small utility knife for precision cutting. I tend to do more slicing than fine push cutting usually. For a larger blade for wood working and general utility I would start to drift towards AUS-6A. It depends a lot on what you do.-Cliff
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Thanks.

*****
 
There is no comparison between 6A and 440C.
6A is the softest steel I've ever used except for Pakistani pot steel.
Seriously, you're better off with 420HC.

"For a larger blade for wood working and general utility I would start to drift towards AUS-6A. It depends a lot on what you do.-Cliff"

That's a typical Cliff comment that makes no sense. Try telling Dawson or any number of highly regarded knife makers that they should be using 6A instead of 440C because then their knives would be more useful.:jerkit:

I will agree that you can get credible performance from even the lowliest knife steels assuming proper heat treat.
Cliff has shown that to be true.
 
Honestly I don't see anyway AUS6 would be preferred over 440C for any reason. I always considered AUS6 to be a steel in the same league as the old "Surgical Stainless" knives produced for years that were bottom of the barrel steels used in cheapy knives. Now some companies are starting to use an AUS4 steel that is even a step below the AUS6 so to me it just goes to show you that some guys will cut with anything. If they are going to continue going backwards why not just start offering bronze blades again if you are going to go that low in the stainless market? I really think AUS8 and 420HC should be as low as they go personally and some would argue that 440C should be the stopping point and that anything less is just milking the public for all they are worth.

STR
 
patrickjames said:
eyeeatingfish
thank you for the article on the differents of blade steel.I'ts all very confusing to us newbie's.I like Randall made knives and I heard they use 440a steel on there stainless steel knifes.For the price maybe they could use something better?I think there still great knives and I'll buy them when I can afford them.(which is not very often)
PJ
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Randall uses lots of steels. 0-1 or 440B on their forged stuff. 440c or ATS-34 on certain other models. :).
 
Though 440C has become passé to many knife collectors/users, I find it to be a very good steel. If it had better edge holding, I would consider it a premium steel.
 
Again, it depends on who is making the steel. Smith & Wesson claims to use 440C a lot in their knives, but no one seems to like them.
 
averageguy said:
6A is the softest steel I've ever used except for Pakistani pot steel.Seriously, you're better off with 420HC.
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420HC is more comparable to AUS-4. 420HC used by Buck for example has a carbon content of 0.4-0.5, AUS-4A is 0.40-0.45, AUS-6 is higher at 0.55-0.65. AUS-6A has a higher max hardness than 420HC, not lower. The other alloying elements are either identical or they overlap, aside from the AUS series having a small amount of vanadium for grain refinement and wear resistance.

STR said:
Honestly I don't see anyway AUS6 would be preferred over 440C for any reason.
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It is tougher, more ductile, has a finer carbide size, better machinability and grindability, there are various applications where this is more relevant than wear resistance, specifically in the knives I noted for which I would prefer it, assuming of course I had to pick between it and 440C. Note some makers are switching from steels like D2 to steels like S7 for the same class of knives I mentioned I would switch from 440C to AUS-6A, is the the same reasoning. Of course some makers always used those types of steels and favored toughness and durability over wear resistance for fairly obvious reasons.

I always considered AUS6 to be a steel in the same league as the old "Surgical Stainless" knives produced for years that were bottom of the barrel steels used in cheapy knives.
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Read Verhoeven's work, specifically note how he compares 440C vs AEB-L, now note the composition of AEB-L/12C27 to AUS-6 and see how it fares with respect to the materials data he provides. As well read Landes commentary on 440A vs 440C and which one he prefers for a knife steel and why. For some direct user work, see reprofiling Sodak has done on D2 and watch what happens to the usefullness of its high wear resistance at low angles for wood work. And of course check the work Alvin and Mike did over 10 years ago on rec.knives noting what happens to coarse grained steels at low angles.

patrickjames said:
...thats really bad.
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It is really false, as noted AUS-6A isn't inhernetly softer than 420HC, as a direct example Phil Wilson runs his customs in 420HC at 55 HRC, CRK&T runs their AUS-4A at 55/57 HRC, thus even AUS-4A isn't softer let alone AUS-6A. There are also lots of knives which are well respected which are that soft and softer such as Randall's O1 which is 55/56 HRC, their 440B which is 56/57 HRC. Reeves also runs S30V in his large blades at 55/57 HRC and for a rather extreme example, Jerry Fisk tempers his personal knives to 52 HRC, far softer than even the AUS-4A that STR accuses manufacturers of "milking the public" with. Not to mention the vast amount of goloks, parangs, machetes, bolos, etc. made out of steels typically at 45-55 HRC.

-Cliff
 
Read what I said again Cliff.

I said "some would argue" I didn' t accuse anyone of milking the public. This discussion has come up before on bottom line steels.

And I should mention that I'm primarily speaking about folders when I talk about these steels. I don't do the fixed blade thing much.
For me there is no reason for AUS6 or AUS4 in a folder. I find 440C to be quite adequate for most delicate and moderately heavy 'folder' work.
STR
 
STR said:
...for most delicate and moderately heavy 'folder' work.
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That is actually the type of work Landes and Verhoeven are discussing, similar to Johnston, Sodak, etc. . The ability to take very fine angles and thus obtain a high sharpness and cutting ability is not a strength of 440C. Johnston doesn't actually use stainless steels but the same principles apply for example in his use of 1095 over D2 for light knives and L6 over M2 for utility knives.

CRK&T mainly argue for the durability aspect for people who need higher toughness and I can understand this after lending knives to carpenters who easily tear up S30V class steels. They are not chopping or prying (well they are, but those are not the problems I am speaking of here) just cutting materials with inclusions like nails or just contaminated with debris.

-Cliff
 
I see your point and its a good one. I know people also that don't deserve a good blade in their hands. My neighbor is such a person. It would make no sense for him to spend money on one of the steels like S30V or ZDP189 because the way he uses his knife there would be no benefit to those steels and perhaps big drawbacks instead, cost of the knife being only one.

I can also see the Delica ZDP in some hands backfiring for the company with complaints about it being used in that model and not holding up as well as past steels but not all people carry their knives and destroy the edge or use them for everything from cutting their steak to cutting nails. Many maintain them and care for them. If someone wants a beater there are plenty of those available in 420HC and 440A out there for $20 to $50. (or AUS6 and 8 for that matter)




STR
 
From my experiance, AUS-6 is to be avoided. I have a Kershaw Vapor II in AUS-6 that simply will not take or hold an edge. On the other hand, I have a Camillus Heat in AUS-8 which I couldn't be happier with. The Heat will take an edge easily and hold it remarkably well. Sorry I can't comment on 440C.
 
Spyderco's AUS6 & CRKT's AUS6M aren't anything to write home about, but they're not THAT bad! Other than more trips to the sharpmaker, I have no complaints with AUS6/M for a dedicated user knife, especially where toughness of the steel & corrosion resistance are a must. I definately appreciate my knives in VG10, S30V, ATS34, 154CM, AUS8/A, & 440C, but for a beater, AUS6/M is ok in my book, as long as you know how to sharpen.

Best wishes,
3G
 
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