-
The BladeForums.com 2024 Traditional Knife is available! Price is $250 ea (shipped within CONUS).
Order here: https://www.bladeforums.com/help/2024-traditional/
Best steel in a Production folder REGARDLESS of price
- Thread starter BePrepared
- Start date
- Joined
- Mar 3, 2006
- Messages
- 7,132
I am not sure what hardness Spyderco run their ZDP-189 at (Jim?), but a couple of days ago, I had occasion to power through a bunch of old industrial zip ties and the edge on my ZDP-189 Endura neither chipped, rolled or dulled. That is good enough for this cowboy.
- Joined
- Jul 22, 2009
- Messages
- 11,409
For best edge retention, S110V, S90V, CTS-20CP, or M390. Good luck finding anything in the first 3. I'd suggest looking for a Spyderco in M390. They run it a bit harder than Benchmade does.
- Joined
- Jul 30, 2006
- Messages
- 45,181
Being a steel junky myself, this is hard to say, but steel choice is over-rated.
Blade geometry has more impact on edge retention than alloy choice.
Proven fact.
But if you want an alloy with great edge retention, M390 is the best I've tested.
Better than S30V, D2, or ZDP189.
Blade geometry has more impact on edge retention than alloy choice.
Proven fact.
But if you want an alloy with great edge retention, M390 is the best I've tested.
Better than S30V, D2, or ZDP189.
- Joined
- Sep 19, 2001
- Messages
- 8,968
I don't know that I'd say overrated. It has been shown that geometry dominates, but we can change that as end users. We can't change the alloy content once we've received the knife. Now buying a boat anchor of a knife and not having a belt sander with accompanying practice and skill won't do you a lot of good no matter how good the alloy is.
- Joined
- Oct 30, 2011
- Messages
- 25
cpm s30v is the only way to go..... para military 2 ftw
- Joined
- Mar 31, 2009
- Messages
- 2,237
I'm not saying that S30V or the Para2 is a bad knife (in fact I have a soft spot for both), but there are definitely higher end steels out there. Don't discount the difference that just a few HRC values can make, nor should steel choice be completely disregarded. Edge geometry is very important, but if you reprofile all your knives to the same angles, you'll be able to tell the difference between steels with enough use.
- Joined
- Oct 20, 2004
- Messages
- 4,704
So I assume a thick edge is going to have best edge retention? A thin edge will deforms more quickly due to less metal supporting the edge resulting in dulling of the blade. So having a thick edge that doesn't cut well is a good way to increase edge retention? It makes a bigger impact than going from AUS8 to M390?
I don't buy it. I can put a 20 deg inclusive edge on my M390, M4, or S90V and still have much better edge retention than AUS8 at 45 deg, plus it cuts much better.
Maybe I'm missing something?
- Joined
- Oct 20, 2004
- Messages
- 4,704
You need to try some higher end steels. S30V is now just average compared to a lot of steel out there, as far as edge retention is concerned. That's is a great knife, but far from the very best for edge retention. Get on the preorder for the M390 Para 2 if you want to give something higher end a try.
My 20CP Para 2 hasn't been sharpened in months, is carried and used everyday, and still easily slices through paper and anything else I need to cut. It won't shave but it still cuts great and I would bet S30V would be butter knife dull by now.
Ankerson
Knife and Computer Geek
- Joined
- Nov 2, 2002
- Messages
- 21,094
Thin that AUS-8 blade out to 20 degrees inclusive and compare it to the results at 45 degrees inclusive.
The 45 degree inclusive edge will hold up better, but won't cut as well.
That's the same as taking 90V and changing the angle from 20 inclusive to 45 inclusive.
MVF
Gold Member
- Joined
- Sep 2, 2005
- Messages
- 2,811
From everything you've (OP) said, and everything I've read (can't afford one myself) I would recommend Rockstead. It seems to be the sharpest OOB and best edge holding I've ever seen/read about. Absolutely beautiful grinds and F&F as well. I've seen them at a show and there are at least a few reviews online for you to check out. Other than that, like everyone has said, take your pick of any number of really great blade steels available today. An absolute embarrassment of riches!
- Joined
- Jul 22, 2009
- Messages
- 11,409
Well strictly speaking, wouldn't that have less to do with edge retention and more to do with cutting via pure edge geometry? Kind of like how a box cutter can still cut cardboard when it isn't sharp enough to open your mail.Thin that AUS-8 blade out to 20 degrees inclusive and compare it to the results at 45 degrees inclusive.
The 45 degree inclusive edge will hold up better, but won't cut as well.
That's the same as taking 90V and changing the angle from 20 inclusive to 45 inclusive.
Personally I don't feel that's a fair indicator of sharpness. For me, a sharp edge should be able to slice paper(from the outside in, not the inside out as that is tearing and not slicing).
Ankerson
Knife and Computer Geek
- Joined
- Nov 2, 2002
- Messages
- 21,094
It's really both.
The thinner edge won't be as strong as the thicker one so it will dull faster also due to the edge breaking down quicker.
Ideally we would have a very thin blade with a steep edge angle to maximise both cutting efficiency and edge retention.
- Joined
- Oct 20, 2004
- Messages
- 4,704
Thin that AUS-8 blade out to 20 degrees inclusive and compare it to the results at 45 degrees inclusive.
The 45 degree inclusive edge will hold up better, but won't cut as well.
That's the same as taking 90V and changing the angle from 20 inclusive to 45 inclusive.
I know what it will do for cutting performance as I have done it to quite a few of my higher end steel knives. But cutting performance isn't the point. I was commenting on the statement that edge geometry has more to do with edge retention than steel does. As I and you in your post further down the page mentioned, the thinner edge will degrade quicker.
I just don't buy that edge geometry is going to have a greater effect on edge retention, than the actual steel. And if you do have the geometry to increase retention, you pay for it with worse cutting performance.
Ankerson
Knife and Computer Geek
- Joined
- Nov 2, 2002
- Messages
- 21,094
I think it's going to be the whole package really, there are so many factors that can and will effect edge retention.
- Joined
- Jul 22, 2009
- Messages
- 11,409
It shouldn't be too difficult, especially with the Spyderco Mules. My Para2 in S90V went 3 months without sharpening while cutting nothing but cardboard. Hypothetically another Para2 in S30V should reveal how much more edge retention you get from the steel alone.
Ankerson
Knife and Computer Geek
- Joined
- Nov 2, 2002
- Messages
- 21,094
One would really have to use the same knife and test it twice with the different edge angles and that's assuming the same media being cut ect.
There will be a difference...
Or even better test both knives twice each and record the data from both, but the media would have to be the same while removing all the variables and have a a good reference point.
Say at 30 degress and 40 degress for both knives or for a bigger difference 20 degrees and 40 degrees.
FlaMtnBkr, I think you have it backwards.
I think Knarfeng was, at least in part, referring to the CATRA testing that Buck did where their 420HC out performed some other steels based solely on thinner geometry of the 420HC blade. The competitors included some 154cm type steels. The overall point for me is that geometry, steel choice, heat treating, balance, and ergonomics are all important and any individual trait can out weigh the others if the difference is big enough.
I think Knarfeng was, at least in part, referring to the CATRA testing that Buck did where their 420HC out performed some other steels based solely on thinner geometry of the 420HC blade. The competitors included some 154cm type steels. The overall point for me is that geometry, steel choice, heat treating, balance, and ergonomics are all important and any individual trait can out weigh the others if the difference is big enough.