Best tasks for each steel attribute?

Noctis3880

Noctis3880

Joined
Jul 22, 2009
Messages
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Here's the thing:
I'm expecting a fixed blade in full flat ground S125V coming in. It will be between Rockwell 64-66 and has 12.5% vanadium content. Thing is, I'm not sure which cutting task would really make this steel shine.

I found S90V and CTS-20CP to excel at cutting cardboard of nearly all variety, though I suspect the 1/2" thick pieces will do some damage to them. Thing is, those two would typically be around Rc 60-61, whereas S125V will be considerably harder at Rc 64-66. I'll still test it on USPS cardboard boxes, though the cardboard I cut at work(usually put on the top, bottom, or middle of a pallet stacked with items) seem to be a reinforced variety that feels like cutting through 3 layers of the postal office cardboard even though it's the same thickness or thinner. So I'm a little concerned about possible chipping in the long run.

I found ZDP-189 takes a nice razor edge despite the carbide volume, which makes me think Hitachi might not be using 1st generation PM to make the steel. I rarely chip ZDP, though I'm not sure of the relative toughness compared to S125V, again because it might be a higher generation PM steel(any confirmation on this would be appreciated), which would make it tougher than an early generation PM of a similar makeup.

3rd generation PM steels like Elmax and M390 seem to be good general purpose blade steels good for pretty much anything outside of large choppers and tactical prybars(though Elmax is probably good for that too). Takes a razor edge and holds it a while too, more wear resistant than S30V and more corrosion resistance too. Even at Rc 62 I found M390 tends to roll rather than chip. Sharpens up fairly easy too and takes a mirror polish well.


Thus far I've determined that toughness is good for chopping where the blade and edge are subjected to hard impacts, especially against hard objects like other metals. I would define "edge stability" as the ability to take and retain a finely honed edge. Hardness seems to increase edge stability and wear resistance, as well as resistance to deformation. Grain refinement increases toughness, ease of sharpening, and edge stability.

Hardness and edge stability seems to be good for most kitchen tasks where you cut fruit, vegetables, and boneless meat. Toughness for chopping bones and frozen meat.

Wear resistance is a bit tricky given that it can be made useless without adequate hardness(S30V from Benchmade) and toughness(ceramic blades).

I'm sort of wondering if S125V isn't something that's just shy of being a ceramic blade. Thing is, I was never that crazy about ceramic blades in the kitchen. I prefer push cutting, and given that ceramic can't handle a thin edge and can't take a fine edge either, it didn't really appeal to me.

At RC 64-66 I'm guessing I probably should put a low angle on the edge, though it might only be good for the light kitchen cutting tasks due to the lack of toughness from such a thin edge, and I'm not sure if any kitchen task actually demands high wear resistance from a steel.
 
S125V isn't all that bad. I don't think it's as ceramic like, or fragile as you are making it out to be. Still, it's not a chopping steel and never will be. For angles in the 35-45 degree range it will do fine in normal day to day stuff. It would make an exceptional skinning type steel depending on the knife & blade shape and grind.

A lot of the problems associated with this steel came from it being the first melt. It was rolled pretty lousy, the scale was so thick the imperfections couldn't be seen ( and there were some imperfections too) until usually after the heat treat on final clean up a crack would be noted.

I'm not sure if it was annealed properly or not but on the first batch I had a piece unworked that was tested at almost rc 50. It was a makers nightmare more than a users problem. Even that same batch was used with better results by re annealing, in some cases blanchard grinding, and a few other things which if I remember correctly is now being done at the company that rolls it out into plate at different widths and sells it to knife companies, and steel wholesalers.

The S125 won't ever have the ease of sharpening and edge stability of super blue, but it's not designed to.

It will have incredible wear resistance, unheard of 25 years ago, and corrosion resistance even in terms that cutlery manufacturers don't need either. Like oil drilling, plastic manufacturing etc. Hostile environment stuff for steel for sure.

Farid has been doing this steel and other amazing, he's a maniac that does steels nobody else does kind of knifemaker. He's certainly no novice and at some point you just need to trust him at his word and ask him about applications, and if they are recommended or not.

Yes, I have two S125 steel knives, and worked on some stock before passing it on as I didn't have the equipment to finish it but another guy did at the time. One knife is a Folder from an Italian company imported by a forum member done at rc 62-63, the other is a small mini knife ( neck knife?) at rc 64.5-65.5. Neither one has seen hard use like I put my knives designed for that through. Either one could easily do the stuff I normally do on a regular EDC.

Good luck

Joe
 
Hmm, Phil Wilson mentioned he had no trouble with toughness with his uses so long as it's used as a slicer blade, no chopping or prying, and I assume some care would need to be taken not to twist in a cut. So I'm guessing cutting wood wouldn't be good as I find the cut needs to be somewhat curved if you want to shave the bark off. Or am I misunderstanding the twisting in a cut? Farid also mentioned he didn't have that sort of trouble with another S125V blade he made, which was heat treated to a similar hardness.

Though Phil mentioned that S110V does as well if not better, which is curious, though I doubt the R.J. Martin Overkill and Kershaw Shallot I have in S110V are treated anywhere near what Phil does.

In any case, I'm eager to see how my Worksharp does against this kind of steel.
 
super-duper-latest-flavor-of-the-month-expensive steel, and then worried about using it to cut cardboard or hack into wood???

gotta love steel snobs...

(waiting for flames or ban)
 
Just this particular steel.

I've had no problems slamming my Benchmade 581 in M390 into a tree:thumbup:.

S125V was the flavor of the month from a few years ago. M390 is today's flavor of the month.

That knife is not going to sit in my safe though, I promise you that.
 
It's really something you will have to test out in that knife to see how it does.

That also depends on how thin Farid ground the blade behind the edge and what edge angle you end up using.
 
zuluninja said:
super-duper-latest-flavor-of-the-month-expensive steel, and then worried about using it to cut cardboard or hack into wood???

gotta love steel snobs...

(waiting for flames or ban)
Click to expand...

S125V isn't new at all and it's not cheap.

It's only avaiable in customs and very few will work with it due to the very high wear resistance of the steel.

Once we get into that S110V, 10V/K294, S125V and 15V range of wear resistance it's like being on another planet compared to the more normal steels like S30V ect.

In customs these steels are usually at high hardness 63-66 HRC depending on the steel.
 
Mr. Ankerson,

You mentioned B-U K294, a high speed tool steel. B-U also makes a cold work tool steel, K390 that seems to have all of the attributes of K294 for cutlery, except the High speed red hardness.

In your opinion, for toughness and edge retention, which would be the better cutlery steel?

Thank you,

Ben
 
Ankerson said:
It's really something you will have to test out in that knife to see how it does.

That also depends on how thin Farid ground the blade behind the edge and what edge angle you end up using.
Click to expand...
Kind of hard to tell from the pictures he sent me, but it looks pretty thin. Not quite Phil Wilson thin, but thinner than my Spyderco Moran. I'll probably match the angle(guessing 15-20 degrees per side) to start out with, and back up on that with further use.

Ben Dover said:
Mr. Ankerson,

You mentioned B-U K294, a high speed tool steel. B-U also makes a cold work tool steel, K390 that seems to have all of the attributes of K294 for cutlery, except the High speed red hardness.

In your opinion, for toughness and edge retention, which would be the better cutlery steel?

Thank you,

Ben
Click to expand...
Not sure if having that high speed red hardness helps for anything short of doing cutting inside of a furnace:D.

Though Bohler's recent steels have been very promising. Kind of makes me wish they would release their own version of S110V. Phil would have a field day with that one:thumbup:.
 
Ben Dover said:
Mr. Ankerson,

You mentioned B-U K294, a high speed tool steel. B-U also makes a cold work tool steel, K390 that seems to have all of the attributes of K294 for cutlery, except the High speed red hardness.

In your opinion, for toughness and edge retention, which would be the better cutlery steel?

Thank you,

Ben
Click to expand...


I posted my test of K294 here: http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...ver-in-K294-Full-Review-and-test?daysprune=30

I don't really know that much about K390 yet other than what Bohler says about it.
 
Ankerson said:
I posted my test of K294 here: http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...ver-in-K294-Full-Review-and-test?daysprune=30

I don't really know that much about K390 yet other than what Bohler says about it.
Click to expand...

I see we use some of the same sources! :D

I, of course, read B-U specs on both steels, then went to Phil Wilson's site. I don't have a knife in M 390 yet, but Mr. Wilson makes the Bow River from M390 also according to his website!

It would appear that both M294 and M390 far surpass S90V, CTS 20 CP and similar steels.

I would very much like to have a Rick Hinderer XM24 and/or a Spyderco Military in either or both of these steels. :):)


Thank you for your prompt reply. Your tests were impressive, to say the least!:thumbup:

Ben
 
Ben Dover said:
I see we use some of the same sources! :D

I, of course, read B-U specs on both steels, then went to Phil Wilson's site. I don't have a knife in M 390 yet, but Mr. Wilson makes the Bow River from M390 also according to his website!

It would appear that both M294 and M390 far surpass S90V, CTS 20 CP and similar steels.

I would very much like to have a Rick Hinderer XM24 and/or a Spyderco Military in either or both of these steels. :):)


Thank you for your prompt reply. Your tests were impressive, to say the least!:thumbup:

Ben
Click to expand...

I can say that K294 is no joke, it's EXTREMELY wear resistant to the point of needing SIC or Diamonds to really move it.

Although once the bevel is set it's not bad to touch up as long as one doesn't really let it get dull, it's very fine grained and will get very, very sharp. I found getting it to hair whittling sharp wasn't too difficult at all off my SIC stones and loaded strop. If one needs to raise a bur then they will need as above to move the steel in a reasonable amount of time.

I feel that K294 is at the top of the heap edge retention wise, with that comes some difficulty dealing with the steel for makers and end users. However if one wants the maximum in edge retention IMO then K294 is that steel.
 
Bohler K390 was developed as an upgrade over A11/K294. The chemistry is improved with more moly and the addition of tungsten and cobalt. We have not yet done a CATRA test on K390, plan to include that in our next series. For now we are waiting for feedback from users, especially in rope cutting. The steel was designed with improved toughness and impact resistance in mind. Edge retention should be about the same as A11, but the added toughness hopefully will allow thinner blades or higher rockwell hardness or both.

Should be some feedback soon. NOTE: this is another steel that will rust and should be ground and shaped BEFORE heat treatment.
 
It will be interesting to see the CATRA tests on K390 and K294 a long with other steels once the next batch is finished and it's posted up. :)
 
My dad was a tool and die maker all his life (God rest his sole.) I worked for his company for 15 years and thought I knew a thing or 2 about steel.... But you guys blow my mind. Thank you for your contributions.
 
In the Spyderco subforum, Mr. Glesser said that he will consider K390. It's only a matter of time before someone, in all likelihood, Mr. Glesser, makes a knife for sale to the public from this magnificent steel. :thumbup::thumbup:

K390 probably isn't the best choice for the casual, once-a-year deer hunter with a carborundum pocket stone, but for the dedicated knife afficianado, it promises to be the Rolls Royce of cutlery steel for a considerable time to come.

Phil Wilson of Seamount Custom Knives is 12 months behind on orders, or I would "bite the bullet" and order a custom K390 from him. :p
 
Noctis3880 said:
Here's the thing:
I'm expecting a fixed blade in full flat ground S125V coming in. It will be between Rockwell 64-66 and has 12.5% vanadium content. Thing is, I'm not sure which cutting task would really make this steel shine.

I found S90V and CTS-20CP to excel at cutting cardboard of nearly all variety, though I suspect the 1/2" thick pieces will do some damage to them. Thing is, those two would typically be around Rc 60-61, whereas S125V will be considerably harder at Rc 64-66. I'll still test it on USPS cardboard boxes, though the cardboard I cut at work(usually put on the top, bottom, or middle of a pallet stacked with items) seem to be a reinforced variety that feels like cutting through 3 layers of the postal office cardboard even though it's the same thickness or thinner. So I'm a little concerned about possible chipping in the long run.

I found ZDP-189 takes a nice razor edge despite the carbide volume, which makes me think Hitachi might not be using 1st generation PM to make the steel. I rarely chip ZDP, though I'm not sure of the relative toughness compared to S125V, again because it might be a higher generation PM steel(any confirmation on this would be appreciated), which would make it tougher than an early generation PM of a similar makeup.

3rd generation PM steels like Elmax and M390 seem to be good general purpose blade steels good for pretty much anything outside of large choppers and tactical prybars(though Elmax is probably good for that too). Takes a razor edge and holds it a while too, more wear resistant than S30V and more corrosion resistance too. Even at Rc 62 I found M390 tends to roll rather than chip. Sharpens up fairly easy too and takes a mirror polish well.


Thus far I've determined that toughness is good for chopping where the blade and edge are subjected to hard impacts, especially against hard objects like other metals. I would define "edge stability" as the ability to take and retain a finely honed edge. Hardness seems to increase edge stability and wear resistance, as well as resistance to deformation. Grain refinement increases toughness, ease of sharpening, and edge stability.

Hardness and edge stability seems to be good for most kitchen tasks where you cut fruit, vegetables, and boneless meat. Toughness for chopping bones and frozen meat.

Wear resistance is a bit tricky given that it can be made useless without adequate hardness(S30V from Benchmade) and toughness(ceramic blades).

I'm sort of wondering if S125V isn't something that's just shy of being a ceramic blade. Thing is, I was never that crazy about ceramic blades in the kitchen. I prefer push cutting, and given that ceramic can't handle a thin edge and can't take a fine edge either, it didn't really appeal to me.

At RC 64-66 I'm guessing I probably should put a low angle on the edge, though it might only be good for the light kitchen cutting tasks due to the lack of toughness from such a thin edge, and I'm not sure if any kitchen task actually demands high wear resistance from a steel.
Click to expand...


IMO to get the most out of the big V steels in Customs at high hardness use a semi polished edge at low angle.

In my Phil Wilson Customs I typically use around 24 degrees inclusive and that semi polished edge that gives a nice balance of edge refinement and aggressiveness taking advantage of the vanadium carbides.

They are all Flat Ground and very thin in the .006" to .010" range behind the edge and 62-64 HRC depending on the knife.

But then they are not for chopping, batoning, making twisting cuts or hitting with a hammer... ;)

They ARE extremely high performance cutters and slicers. :)
 
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Mr. Ankerson,

Like you, I use a knife for cutting thngs. Not for an axe, prybar, wood splitter or because it looks "cool."

I love a steel that will hold an edge very well, at a very obtuse angle, and a Rockwell hardness of C-64 or greater. I suppose that's why I have become such an outspoken advocate of B-U K390.:thumbup:


To paraphrase an old slogan, I wish to go where cutlery steel has never gone before!:p
 
Thanks, Ankerson et al for the good info. on these steels. Should avoid nicking bones with these while processing a bull elk. DM
 
Ben Dover said:
Mr. Ankerson,

Like you, I use a knife for cutting thngs. Not for an axe, prybar, wood splitter or because it looks "cool."

I love a steel that will hold an edge very well, at a very acute angle, and a Rockwell hardness of C-64 or greater. I suppose that's why I have become such an outspoken advocate of B-U K390.:thumbup:


To paraphrase an old slogan, I wish to go where cutlery steel has never gone before!:p
Click to expand...
Fixed that for you.
 
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