Better quality knife, forging or stock removal

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Kevin - can I PLEASE ask a grain question here?

You said: "Remember I said that hot rolling the as-cast ingots helps to close up voids, porosity and inclusions? This fibrous texture or “flow lines” are NOT to be confused with the austenite grains. The flow lines will remain throughout the heat-treating process because they physical defects and cannot be affected by diffusional processes."

I have some ATS-34 from Admiral Steel. It is listed as "cold rolled annealed". It has a very definite grain pattern. At least that's the only thing I can call it. They run longways on the bar and show up during final finishing. (Adds an interesting look.)

So, are these things created because someone rolled out steel that had 'voids'? (I thought ATS-34 was a powdered steel like CM-154? ) My other ATS-34 bars don't do this - they are hot rolled? Better quality?

Is there any adverse effects from these "flow lines".

Thanks for all the good data!

Steve
 
I like questions like this. It gives me an opportunity to be humble and show that I am not a know-it-all. I have spent a lto of time researching simple alloys and carbon steels, but the stainless steels never interested me so they are a mystery to me. Most of their manufacturing processes and behavior is out of my area of interest.

I would also need to see the phenomenon you are talking about to know exactly what it is. Fibrous flow lines should be present to some degree whenever there is any sort of semi permenant structure or inconsistancy in the pre rolled form. In the case of tightly controlled manufacuturing processes they should be no more than cosmetic. Richer alloys will also form carbide/alloy sheets and bands that will create a wootzy or damscus like look. It can be enhanced by thermal treatments and can have such a bold pattern that some unscrupulous makers have even tried to pass this off aswootz. So without seeing it I would only be guessing at what you may have.
 
I have seen comments in the past about problems with ATS-34 or 154-cm where there had been changes in the making of the steel . It became dirtier and that would show up in final polishing, you could see the inclusions ( not voids). The other problem as Kevin mentions is called alloy segregation or alloy banding and that is found in more complex alloys. It is a result of the initial solidification of the ingot and will remain as banding and is clearly seen in the microstucture.
 
Douglas,
After reading what Kevin said - if what he is referring to is what you mean, I understand. One of the advantages a forger can have is that it's much easier for him to redesign the whole profile of a blade and not actually loose material in the process. This is an advantage to "tweaking" the balance on a blade. Plus Ken is right - a distal taper, whether forged or ground, really helps the balance of a blade.

That being said, I've personally forged some wayyyy out of balance knives (you'll never see them though ;) ) and ground a blade or two that have balanced pretty well. I'm not much of a grinder - I prefer to make banging sounds and sing manly Monty Python songs while playing with fire.... :)

Tim
 
Even the stock removal blades that have a taper seem to have a less neutral balance than the forged blades I have handled in the same size range. Some of them have the balance farther forward and others more toward the handle but none were as dead on the first finger.
 
"Even the stock removal blades that have a taper seem to have a less neutral balance than the forged blades I have handled in the same size range. Some of them have the balance farther forward and others more toward the handle but none were as dead on the first finger."

How many blades of well-known stock removal knifemakers have you held? There is no magic to this. A stock removal maker can balance a blade just how you want if he knows what he's doing. Have you asked a well known stock removal knifemaker to make a blade for you that balances on the first finger? If he screwed it up, send it back or find another maker.

Step back and think about this for a moment. Look at an antique metal chemist's balance (I'm sure there's a real name for them I just can't think of now) - do you honestly believe these have to be forged to work as a balance precise enough for a chemist? If they can be cast or ground precise enough to work in the precise environment of a laboratory - how can you think that knives made of metal and wood can't be ground precise enough for your hand? :confused:

Tim
 
Good Gods!
This fight is 6 years old. Is there a reason this one needed necroposting?
I forge blades because that is how it feels good to make blades, I squish the metal into whatever form I want it to be. Then I grind it for finish. Some people make spectacularly good knives by taking bars of steel FORGED by a steel mill and cutting and grinding them to a finished knife. I rib them a lot about turning perfectly good steel to dust, but at the end of the day their stock removal knives are probably just as good as my forged knives all else being equal, and their knives are probably more metallurgically consistant because they are not running the risk of overheating their steel in the forge fire.

Let this thread die again.

-Page
 
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