Bias Against 440C

I'll admit it too- I have a bias against 440C. And only for that steel! I have had too many 440C knives given to me to sharpen that felt like sharpening plastic and were nearly impossible to give a good edge to. I know it can be done right but I don't really want to try. Irrational- yes. Gonna buy 440C- most likely not.
 
I noticed that although the Boker Subcom & Trance folders are AUS8, the Subcom Fixed Blade is 440C. As a necker, up against the body, it would definitely benefit from the stainlessness of 440C ... but why did they beadblast it?
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With regards to Boker, I was thinking of many of the Argentina-made Boker-Arbolito knives. Nice workmanship, beautiful designs, but unworthy 440A steel.

And their TopLock knives are 420 steel. What a waste.
 
michaelmcgo said:
To answer your question: Yes, you are way underestimating 440C. As with all steels (especially stainless) the heat treat is absolutely critical.
I clump stainless steels into three catigories:

Crap (400 series, 440A, AUS4, 420J, Surgical, etc.)
Decent (Buck's 420HC, Aus8, 13C26, etc.)
Premium (440C, N690, VG-10, S30V, 154CM, ETC.)

440C falls into my Premium catigory. I have owned and heavily used a few knives from Benchmade in 440C, and was nothing but impressed. The steel sharpens up far beyond where I can get S30V, and the sharpness potential is why I put 440C in the premium catigory. It is also very stainless, takes a very nice polished finish, sharpens easily, and holds an edge for as long as you would need in an EDC. If you know how to sharpen, I would recommend 440C as fast as I would recommend 154CM or N690.
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The sharpness potential is INSANE with 440C: my Entrek Merc is beyond hair popping scary sharpness
 
154CM is really nothing more than enhanced 440C and personally it pains me a bit with folks that discount 440C off hand just because its not the new kid on the block. In truth 440C is still to this day a premium steel no matter how you look at it. For one it polishes and works better than a lot of the newer so called super steels, which makes it look better longer but also its sold all over so if you look deep enough you'll see a lot of the best makers still use it and many have all their lives. I grew up with it and many of my 'premium' customs are in fact out of this steel. Peter Bald still uses it and he is perhaps Australias most prominent award winning folder maker. Dick Atkinson used it a lot and one of my favorite little knives is from him actually. But believe me I understand what you are saying. I noted a difference on some steels but they have other draw backs too. You have to find one that covers all the bases as well as possible and 440C still does that.

In other words, how good is good enough when it comes to blade steel in a folder? What I mean is, most folks that actually don't buy knives like us (one a week or more) carry a knife and use it regular and regardless of the steel the blade is made out of the edge is pretty much taken to a point where most of us would say it needs maintenance bad and yet they use it that way all the time. Does it much matter what steel it is after a certain point is what I'm saying. I think most end line users are actually more concerned with ease of sharpening and looks over time than anything else based on my own feedback from folks. They'll sooner call and complain to ya about a small pit than they will edge holding problems.

I've had the opportunity to handle a lot of knives and many these days come to me from companies to eval for them. As a result I've handed out these knives to folks in my own circle (non forum or knife nuts BTW) after testing it myself and the reason is so they can take it out and carry and use it as their own. I have been surprised at how many really aren't impressed with S30V all that much. Some have actually told me things like, what good is all that edge keeping when it chips all up like this? One other guy actually gave a S30V folder (expensive one too!) back to me because he got something else at Wal-Mart he liked better from the same company.

440C is a fine everyday steel its just no longer the 'trendy' steel it was but that doesn't make it bad or even undesireable. Not to me anyway. Most makers, myself included find someone familar with it local that is familar with it and can heat treat it and also its one of those steels makers rarely hear bad feedback about once its out with a customer.

You know guys, in my opinion most end line users couldn't tell you in a blind test of four identical blades all heat treated properly with cryo afterwards which one was 440C, AUS6 or 8 or 154CM or ATS34. In fact I doubt they'd know if they tried hard and after they take them to the point they usually have the edge everyday anyway this is especially true.

Everyone always wants the bigger better deal. Its human nature. Nothing wrong with that but its still not going to make the old obsolete.

STR
 
STR
Everyone always wants the bigger better deal. Its human nature. Nothing wrong with that but its still not going to make the old obsolete.
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and that's the jist of it right there.

This hobby/lifestyle/whatever is no different from guys into engines , stereos or computers etc.
Myself and my PC literate friends love to outdo each other on the latest ,greatest video cards , motherboards and the like.
Nevermind that the card that cost 300$ a year ago still works great , there's no bragging rights in not having something fancy. :D
 
fdd19 said:
The sharpness potential is INSANE with 440C: my Entrek Merc is beyond hair popping scary sharpness
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Yup. Entrek makes 440C like it's supposed to be made. I have an Entrek Cobra, and that thing holds an edge like you wouldn't believe! :thumbup:
 
J85909266 said:
Steels like 440C and AUS8 are just plain outdated in the market, here...they are good steels for mid priced beaters, but good, expensive designs can really be brought down by them. There are several companies that have blades I'd like to try but haven't because I just don't want to pay $70+ for a knife that uses what I consider beater steel.
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Your conclusions may be a bit harsh, even though there's substance to what you say. I've noticed that when goes beyond, say, AUS8, then the knife you just bought for $60-$70 suddenly zooms to over a hundred, especially when you're talking four- to six-inch blades! Spyderco is known for using superlative steel in their folders, but look how much of that steel they give you: Not much! We're not talking about platinum here, but using the so-called super steels makes the price of a knife exorbitant. Heck, some knife companies went from making liners out of 420J to making blades out of the stuff. That's downright scandalous!

AUS8 and 440A are what make folders affordable. In fact, quality 440C is downright scarce these days.
<
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spyderco%20native.jpg


The Spyderco Native is a great little knife. Most
Spydercos, in fact, offer small, extremely tapered
blades with a hole punched out of them. You'd think
it was a precious metal.
 
Silverdagger said:
It is a steel that has been around forever. According to what I read, the latest greatest S30V is only 45% better in terms of edge retention. So 40 years of space age technology and you get the steel touted as best there ever has been and it is only 45% better than 440C. Something to think about.
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ONLY 45%?

a Corvette C6 is only 45% faster than a Saturn ion.

45% is the difference between 0-60 in 8 seconds, and doing it in 4.2 seconds.

replace speed with edge retention and you have the difference betweene 440C and S30V.
 
440C done right is excellent. My BM Griptilians and 805 TSEK's have incredible performance.

The bias against this steel always reminds me of the fact that my father used knives all of his life, and got tons of usage, and impressive work, out of knives that were "inferior" to 440C steel. So it's not only edge-holding, latest-greatest that counts. I really like S30V, VG10, 154CM, etc. But I also find proper 440C to be top-notch. There may even be some cases where the ability to easily resharpen a blade is more important than super-edge-holding.

Honestly, there are people all over the world who use low-end knives and survive grandly. Sure, if exposed to modern, "better" knives, they may jump at the chance to have them. But these same people use and demand more of their knives on a daily basis than the majority of steel elitists would ever do.
Jim
 
It seems to me that the main argument is ease of sharpening vs edge holding.

If you want a knife that requires very little effort to sharpen, but needs to be sharpened weekly, then 440C is a fine steel.

OTOH, if you are willing to put in the time and energy to put a really good edge on S30V, D2 or M2, you wil have very long periods of time between sharpenings.

I prefer edge holding to ease of sharpening. but that's just my taste.:D
 
440C is my favourite stainless especially when it is used in specific applications where it's abilities shine. It takes an incredible polish ,is one of the most corrosion resictant steels and it is well known how to properly heat treat it. It is perfect for dive knives ,knives worn close to the body ,kitchen knives and anything with a fine finish.

Just look how it stacks up to one of todays more popular steels D2 and it has a corrosion resistance at the top of any steel.


I would love to see some chute knives made of 440C with a high polish.
Also a lot of bayonets are made of 440A because they are often stored in conditions that can lead to rust. I would love to see a quality 440C bayonet.


I can't wait to try one of the Benchmade 440C knives.
 
mr.trooper said:
ONLY 45%?

a Corvette C6 is only 45% faster than a Saturn ion.

45% is the difference between 0-60 in 8 seconds, and doing it in 4.2 seconds.

replace speed with edge retention and you have the difference betweene 440C and S30V.
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I think we've been through this before in another thread.:)

If S30V is actually 45% "Better" ...

That's the same as saying 440C is only about half as good as S30V or S30V is nearly "twice the steel" of 440C.

If 440C can hold up to 1000 cuts, S30V will hold up to that same 1000, plus an additional 450.

If I'm going 45% faster around Willow Springs than the rest of the field, I'll be lapping people in just over 2 laps. In a short eight-lap sprint race I will have lapped the field three times. :eek: I'd be a legend!!

Is the 440C knife about half the price of the exact same knife in S30V? I mean if you're only getting about half the performance ....

(I have no gripes with 440C. I just think a figure like 45% (assuming it's accurate) is a big deal.)
 
I think ease of sharpening is often underrated as a value.

As a teenager a friend and I used to cut and deliver cordwood in the summers to make money. We usually had to sharpen our chainsaws around once a day. We often did it after lunch, it was easy and enjoyable, we would chat the whole time, took around 10 minutes. Now if we could have gotten saw chains that were 100 percent more wear resistant so that we could sharpen our saws every other day that would have been useful. But if sharpening them took twice as long, required more precision and focus, and used up files faster, I'm not sure that higher quality steel would have been a net benefit.
 
440C is the most under rated steel. I think it has to do with 440A and some dishonest chinese company's seling fake 440C. The first Byrd knives were marked 440C until Sal realized that their 440C was not the same as our 440C. If you look at the graph it gives up a tiny amount of toughness to D2 which no one seems to have problems with other than chipping (which 440C does not seem to do) but it has a HUGE advantage in corrosion resistance.

Many european knife company's use 440C in their premium blades still because of it's great performance and how well it takes a polish. It also heps that the euro market is not as interested in super duper steels. Actually 440C was the first super steel.

In most applications 440C is a better choice than D2. I would love a high polished Rat 3 in 440C as an EDC but I doubt it would sell.
 
I think corrossion resistance is the most overrated aspect of a cutlery steel.

If you take proper care of your knife, it isn't going to rust. regardless of the steel used.

Re. The chainsaw analogy: I would love to have a sawchain that I didn't have to sharpen after a single day of cutting.

And my Craftsman electric sharpener wouldn't know the difference in sharpening time.
 
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