Bias Against 440C

I can't account for the 440C that's been coming from the far east in recent years, but I have several 1970s vintage Buck 110s with 440C blades and they perform wonderfully for all kinds of cutting tasks. I'm not certain, but I think Paul Bos may have had something to do with the heat treat even back then.

I've got ZDP/S30V/D2/M2/ATS34/VG-10, etc., but with good geometry and heat treat 440C works well for me too.
 
Some of the old Bucks with 440C were a bear to sharpen. 420HC sharpens far easier and, according to what I read, in CATRA comparisons, holds an edge better.
 
Alberta Ed said:
Some of the old Bucks with 440C were a bear to sharpen. 420HC sharpens far easier and, according to what I read, in CATRA comparisons, holds an edge better.
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I agree with the sharpening of the 440C being a pain, but would you mind posting where you found the info about CATRA comparisons saying the 420HC holds a better edge please?


I also agree that I would rather have a ribeye than a flank steak too :D
 
I'm a fan of carbon steel but I'm beginning to learn the virtues of stainless. I have a beginner's question: Reading about 420, I hear that it is a lower grade steel for common kitchen cutlery. I read that 440 is better, but runs in grades from 440A (least preferred) to 440C (best). Yet I see a maker like Canal Street Cutlery who make high-end knives in 420. Is it 420HC? What is the difference? Can somebody please educate me or point me to a link? Thanks
 
420HC is fine for most folks and can certainly hold its own for any everyday carry knife or it would not be in the hands of so many. Its popular with manufacturers because of the fact that its easily blanked out from what I've been told.

Back when I was young and 440C was first being made and used to replace other blade steels there were folks complaining about how hard it was to sharpen much like they do S30V and ZDP189 among others today and yet today its looked at as an easier to sharpen steel. Kind of sheds some new light on it that its all in what you are used to I guess.

I've had knives in 420HC like the Buck 110s and in 440A like the Kershaw BlackOut that I really liked a lot and used heavily. They always pleased me just fine but I never felt as fond of them as I did my older 440C Buck models or my other 440C knives. In practical use though, they worked just fine. I think how a person feels about his/her knife means as much to them as anything about the edge keeping or ease of sharpening. 440C helped them feel like they carried a better made, quality knife vs a cheap one I think. It has always been considered upscale so in this regard it made people feel better. Whether it worked better is not so much a part of the issue.

I mean a Chevy can get you to Wal-Mart as easy as a Caddy but the Caddy does make you appreciate the ride a bit more I guess.

STR
 
STR -- that's kind of my thinking too. Buck's 440C is hard to sharpen -- compared to what? When Buck was using 440C in the 60s and 70s, most of the other readily available knives were 1095 hardened a couple of points lower on the Rc scale. By today's standards, with ZDP, S30V, and D2, etc., 440C is easy to sharpen.

As far as 420hc holding an edge longer in a CATRA test, I wonder if that might have been a comparison of the 420hc with the newer Buck 2x edge, which is thinner -- IIRC, 26-32 degrees -- with the old edge geometry, which was up to about 50. Thinner edges do last longer. If the edge geometry was exactly the same, I'd think 440C would do better.

I have a couple of old 110s in 440C that I thinned to about 12 degrees per side. They cut great and the edges hold quite well.

Of course one very vocal former lurker of these forums asserted 420hc held an edge longer than S30V. Does that also mean 420J2 holds an edge longer than ZDP-189? ;)
 
GarageBoy said:
What comes in 440c?
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most(if not all) Entrek's line. I got the Merc, saw it when i was looking at the subhilt silhoutte(an alternative to the out of production CS OSS in carbon V, pissed i missed out on that steel)
 
People will pay more for a knife made of D2 than 440C even though they have very similar
properties other than 440C has much much better corrosion resistance and does not chip as much.
 
440C is alright, baseline. I've been trying out premium steels with my cowboy friends. Hard use knives, whatever needs to get done, hay bales full of dirt, hooves, whatever.154 CM, S30V hold an edge, for a while, but are too hard to sharpen for a hard use knife. High maintenance, impractical. D2, 40C, 420HC, carbon steels holding up. The real world. Not uban, woosified. Yo.
 
Coldwood said:
I'm a fan of carbon steel but I'm beginning to learn the virtues of stainless. I have a beginner's question: Reading about 420, I hear that it is a lower grade steel for common kitchen cutlery. I read that 440 is better, but runs in grades from 440A (least preferred) to 440C (best). Yet I see a maker like Canal Street Cutlery who make high-end knives in 420. Is it 420HC? What is the difference? Can somebody please educate me or point me to a link? Thanks
Click to expand...

Try this link:
Steel FAQ

Typically knife makers who use 420 steel use 420HC. Although Columbia knife and tool uses what they call 420J2. IIRC Canal street uses 420HC.

440A, 440B, 440C differ in the amount of carbon in the alloy.

________Carbon_______Mang_______Chr_______Moly_______Van
420_____0.15___________14__________
420J2___0.32___________--______12.00 to 14.00_____--_________--
420HC__0.40-0.50_______0.8_____12.00-14.00_____0.6_______0.18
440A___0.65-0.75________1_____16.00-18.00______0.75________—
440B___0.75-0.95________1_____16.00-18.00______0.75________—
440C___0.95 - 1.20_______1_____16.00-18.00______0.75________—


All other things being equal, the harder the steel, the better the edge retension. More carbon usually means harder steel. But Chromium reacts with carbon to form carbides. The carbon that reacts with Chromium is not available to harden the steel, (But the chromium carbides that are formed are very hard so that wear resistance is enhanced even though the steel is softer.) So you need to look at the Chromium level as well.

Now to totally confuse the issue, the heat treat can turn everything upside down. So you want to buy from a maker you trust to properly heat treat the steel.

420HC actually gets a tad harder than 440A. And the trace of Vanadium in the alloy should produce finer grain structure than 440A. (finer grain structure is good.) But 440A has more carbides. Beats me. I think it's a tossup between properly done 440A and properly done 420HC, especially in every day use.

420HC does not get harder than 440B or 440C. I would take either of these 440 alloys over any 420 alloy, again all properly heat treated.

I've had 440A and 420HC blades that did not hold an acceptible edge for what I was looking for. I've also had 440A and 420HC blades that did an acceptible job. Depends on the heat treat. This is not to say they performed as well as something like ATS34 or 440C.

Welcome to stainless!

Oh and BTW, the geometry of the blade can have more impact than the difference in alloy. Oh Boy, another factor to worry about!
 
When I was a kid I spent a little time hanging around in Bo Randall's show room, museum, and shop. I would like to have seen somebody try to explain to him why 440C is a "beater steel." That could have been amusing I think.
 
The problem with 440C is that it's being copied in so many countries and production is just plain below-par in most countries besides Germany, US, and Japan, etc. Taiwan is just gettin' there. 440C is no flop if it's the real stuff. If you know which company offers real 440C with good heat treat then you're gonna be surprised with the performance. The current company that I trust with good 440C and heat treat is Entrek, I have 3 Jags and 2 Huntsman(huntsman is no longer in production so they're now my collector pieces), and I have been nothing but amazed by its performance. It comes close to Fallkniven's VG-10, but it is a little easier to sharpen and the edge holding is about 85% to VG-10.
 
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