Black Pacific Salt

[D1omedes]

Never. VG10 has a LOT more edge retention and has very decent corrosion resistance in the first place.

To be fair, has anyone had an H1 blade long enough to know how good the edge retention really is? Don't get me wrong, I have heard nothing but great things about VG10. I'm just curious about future possibilities.

How cool would it be if H1 was refined to the point where it had great edge retention? I know Benchmade experimented with rust-proof steel but didn't like the outcome. Perhaps Spyderco will be able to refine H1 and make their knives the best, all-around products. Just a thought.

 

[Josh K]

To be fair, has anyone had an H1 blade long enough to know how good the edge retention really is? Don't get me wrong, I have heard nothing but great things about VG10. I'm just curious about future possibilities.

How cool would it be if H1 was refined to the point where it had great edge retention? I know Benchmade experimented with rust-proof steel but didn't like the outcome. Perhaps Spyderco will be able to refine H1 and make their knives the best, all-around products. Just a thought.

The only way to increase the edge retention is to increase the hardness. Easiest way to do that is to use it. H1's edge retention is constently improving the more it's used and sharpened.

 

[D1omedes]

The only way to increase the edge retention is to increase the hardness. Easiest way to do that is to use it. H1's edge retention is constently improving the more it's used and sharpened.

I thought hardness was a matter of metallurgy. So using a knife actually makes it harder? Can you explain a little further, please?

 

[Josh K]

I thought hardness was a matter of metallurgy. So using a knife actually makes it harder? Can you explain a little further, please?

H1 is a precipitation hardened (work hardened) steel. It has .1% Nitrogen and little carbon. This makes it rustless.

I'm absolutely no expert on how it work hardens, but I think it's pretty cool that the edges of H1 blades RC out at 63-64 while the spine sits at 53-54. :thumbup:

 

[D1omedes]

H1 is a precipitation hardened (work hardened) steel. It has .1% Nitrogen and little carbon. This makes it rustless.

I'm absolutely no expert on how it work hardens, but I think it's pretty cool that the edges of H1 blades RC out at 63-64 while the spine sits at 53-54. :thumbup:

Wow, that was like trying to understand Chinese.

What is RC and what does 63-64/53-54 mean?

 

[Josh K]

Wow, that was like trying to understand Chinese.

What is RC and what does 63-64/53-54 mean?

RC = Rockwell hardness (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rockwell_scale)

Typical hardness for a knife blade is 55-56 throughout. Some knife makers (typically nonproduction or custom) differentially harden the blades so that the cutting edge is harder then the spine.

Mid grade steels (AUS-8/440C/VG-10/ATS-34/154CM) can get hardened to the 58-60 range. (I would like to add that there's a hot topic of debate about these midrange steels and which is better then what. Technically VG-10 is on the high end, AUS-8/440C is on the low end of this range.)

More exotic alloys (S30V/ZDP-189/S90V/3V) can take higher RC levels and thus better edge retention (in addition to packing them full of carbon and other alloys). These blades (whole blade hardness) RC out at 60-63 depending on the steel.

H1 is unique in that grinding (working) or sharpening the blade actually hardens it. H1 is not (iirc) hardened traditionally by heating it and cooling followed by tempering. The machining of the blade hardens it.

That's one reason H1 blades are not available FFG (full flat grind) is because hollow grinding is done both sides at once, ffg grinds are done first one side, then the other. After you grind the first side the other side of the blade has started to harden, and grinding hardened steel will eat belts like a shredder eats paper.

 

[D1omedes]

RC = Rockwell hardness (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rockwell_scale)

Typical hardness for a knife blade is 55-56 throughout. Some knife makers (typically nonproduction or custom) differentially harden the blades so that the cutting edge is harder then the spine.
Is there a benefit to having a harder cutting edge over the spine?

Mid grade steels (AUS-8/440C/VG-10/ATS-34/154CM) can get hardened to the 58-60 range. (I would like to add that there's a hot topic of debate about these midrange steels and which is better then what. Technically VG-10 is on the high end, AUS-8/440C is on the low end of this range.)

More exotic alloys (S30V/ZDP-189/S90V/3V) can take higher RC levels and thus better edge retention (in addition to packing them full of carbon and other alloys). These blades (whole blade hardness) RC out at 60-63 depending on the steel.
Is it true that harder steels also chip easier? I remember hearing that somewhere. I've also heard they are much harder to sharpen.

H1 is unique in that grinding (working) or sharpening the blade actually hardens it. H1 is not (iirc) hardened traditionally by heating it and cooling followed by tempering. The machining of the blade hardens it.
What is "iirc"?

That's one reason H1 blades are not available FFG (full flat grind) is because hollow grinding is done both sides at once, ffg grinds are done first one side, then the other. After you grind the first side the other side of the blade has started to harden, and grinding hardened steel will eat belts like a shredder eats paper.
Would the Tenacious/Dragonfly be ffg's? I'm still trying to remember the names for different blade types.

Thanks a lot for taking the time explain this all to me, Josh. :thumbup:

 

[Josh K]

Thanks a lot for taking the time explain this all to me, Josh. :thumbup:

No problem.

IIRC = If I recall correctly.

Having a harder cutting edge then spine means that you get the increased edge retention of the harder edge, and the toughness of a soft spine. Lower hardness means the steel is tougher, but holds doesn't hold an edge as well.

Harder steels have the potential to chip, but I have never had a problem with it. Heat treatment methods have improved to the point where chipping is virtually a non-issue. The major source of chipping is in improperly heat treated blades, mostly a bad temper. Tempering removes some of the internal stresses that hardening sets up and makes the blade softer, but tougher. If you just harden and don't temper, the blade will break like glass.

Tenacious and Dragonfly are both FFG. As well as the Chinook 3, Military, Paramilitary, FFBM (figure that out. Hint: ask the Busse subforum), Police 3, Original Manix + Mini Manix.

 

[D1omedes]

No problem.

IIRC = If I recall correctly.
Can you tell that I don't use AIM?

Having a harder cutting edge then spine means that you get the increased edge retention of the harder edge, and the toughness of a soft spine. Lower hardness means the steel is tougher, but holds doesn't hold an edge as well.
Do you think that a softer spine allows for greater strain/torque to be placed on the blade?

Harder steels have the potential to chip, but I have never had a problem with it. Heat treatment methods have improved to the point where chipping is virtually a non-issue. The major source of chipping is in improperly heat treated blades, mostly a bad temper. Tempering removes some of the internal stresses that hardening sets up and makes the blade softer, but tougher. If you just harden and don't temper, the blade will break like glass.

Tenacious and Dragonfly are both FFG. As well as the Chinook 3, Military, Paramilitary, FFBM (figure that out. Hint: ask the Busse subforum), Police 3, Original Manix + Mini Manix.
What are the differences between a hollow grind and a ffg? I hear people claim they love ffgs much more but I don't often hear why they do.

I remember thinking Spyderco blades were stupid-looking knives. Once I started to become interested in knife design and steel, I discovered how serious Spyderco was. Too bad I don't have enough cash to get all the ones I want.

 

[Josh K]

I remember thinking Spyderco blades were stupid-looking knives. Once I started to become interested in knife design and steel, I discovered how serious Spyderco was. Too bad I don't have enough cash to get all the ones I want.

To truly appreciate the effort Spyderco puts into their products you have to use them. The Military is one of the best production folders ever made in my opinion. :thumbup:

Don't worry about the ones you want, they'll always be there.

 

[D1omedes]

I'd love to get a military but in NY it's illegal to carry a concealed blade over 3 inches (or so I've been told by a lawyer-friend). That's why I'll probably start off with a ladybug and a salt 1. I'd like to pick up a dragonfly but the lack of jimping bothers me.

Do you prefer hollow grind or ffg?

 

[Josh K]

I'd love to get a military but in NY it's illegal to carry a concealed blade over 3 inches (or so I've been told by a lawyer-friend). That's why I'll probably start off with a ladybug and a salt 1. I'd like to pick up a dragonfly but the lack of jimping bothers me.

Do you prefer hollow grind or ffg?

Personally I'm hooked on the FFG. I find it slices better, and just looks awesome. Hollow grinds are good when you want a thicker spine on a tougher knife (think Manix 2).

New York under 3" ? I don't think so.... (http://pweb.netcom.com/~brlevine/ny.txt) Course I could be wrong. Just don't wave the thing around while running through a train station.

 

[moonwilson]

No problem.
Tenacious and Dragonfly are both FFG. As well as the Chinook 3, Military, Paramilitary, FFBM (figure that out. Hint: ask the Busse subforum), Police 3, Original Manix + Mini Manix.

The FFBM is saber-ground. The FBMLE is full flat.

 

[Josh K]

The FFBM is saber-ground. The FBMLE is full flat.

Ahhhhhhhhh. :foot:

Thanks for correcting me.

 

[D1omedes]

Personally I'm hooked on the FFG. I find it slices better, and just looks awesome. Hollow grinds are good when you want a thicker spine on a tougher knife (think Manix 2).

New York under 3" ? I don't think so.... (http://pweb.netcom.com/~brlevine/ny.txt) Course I could be wrong. Just don't wave the thing around while running through a train station.

FFG do look cool. But hollow grinds look cool, too. They remind me of miniature swords or something.

Thanks for the link. Maybe I should start asking some cops I know the law regarding knives.

Another consideration I have is price. As a student, I can't really shell out +$100 right now. I'll stick with the smaller blades till then.

 

[SecSpyral]

Hmmm, just noticed MSRP is $15.00 more on the black blade compared to other Salts, so Knifecenter is probably spot on at $77.00.

Thanks for the link SecSpyral

no problem. I'm a little pissed off at them right now though. The website said it was in stock (saturday) and then I just got an email today (monday) saying that it is not in stock. I called them and they said they have no idea when they will be receiving it.

 

[Josh K]

no problem. I'm a little pissed off at them right now though. The website said it was in stock (saturday) and then I just got an email today (monday) saying that it is not in stock. I called them and they said they have no idea when they will be receiving it.

Knifecenter's always been pretty good for me, but then again, I get all my Spydies through Tom Berry. Especially the ones that are limited or just came out (ex. Orange Millie)

 

[Naga99]

D1omedes, welcome to the world of blade steel and grinds. Life will never be the same.

To further complicate this for you, H1 is technically a ceramic. I don't understand it, but I asked the question in another post a while back, and the spyderco guys confirmed it. An iron based ceramic, cool.

The H1 serrated blades are harder at the edge than the plain edge blades, as a result of the additional grinding (work hardening) required for the serrations. I've heard the serrated H1 blades don't need to be sharpened very often, making them closer to a blade in the high-end steel range Josh discussed (like S30V maybe). The non-serrated apparently require more frequent sharpening, like a more basic steel. I have a couple non-serrated H1 blades, but haven't used them enough to have my own opinion, just repeating others' thoughts here.

As I understand it, H1 isn't just rust resistant. Rather, it just won't freakin' rust. I read something (don't remember if it was this forum) about a guy who took the challenge, immersed it in coke for a month, salt water, salt water with electric current... He couldn't touch it. Maybe someone else knows where to find this.

To continue with thoughts on hardness, you can think of harder implying more brittle. So, you have the hard, but more brittle edge, that holds an edge for a long time, and is capable of cutting/penetrating much better than a softer edge. However, don't forget 'brittle', but brittle is trumped by the softer steel behind it, and this softer steel serves as a kind of shock absorber, increasing blade strength. If you didn't have the shock absorber the blade would be too brittle and would be much more inclined to snap under impact. This is how the japanese built their swords for at least hundreds years. Reading back, I think Josh pretty much said this...

Anyhow, enough rambling out of me.

 

[dolphincry]

harder (hardness) the blade is....harder to sharpened it......now I get it...

anyway, thanks for the blade 101 lesson guys...enjoy reading it!

 

[D1omedes]

D1omedes, welcome to the world of blade steel and grinds. Life will never be the same.
Thanks. It's so true. I'm totally obsessed now.

To further complicate this for you, H1 is technically a ceramic. I don't understand it, but I asked the question in another post a while back, and the spyderco guys confirmed it. An iron based ceramic, cool.
That is cool.

The H1 serrated blades are harder at the edge than the plain edge blades, as a result of the additional grinding (work hardening) required for the serrations. I've heard the serrated H1 blades don't need to be sharpened very often, making them closer to a blade in the high-end steel range Josh discussed (like S30V maybe). The non-serrated apparently require more frequent sharpening, like a more basic steel. I have a couple non-serrated H1 blades, but haven't used them enough to have my own opinion, just repeating others' thoughts here.

As I understand it, H1 isn't just rust resistant. Rather, it just won't freakin' rust. I read something (don't remember if it was this forum) about a guy who took the challenge, immersed it in coke for a month, salt water, salt water with electric current... He couldn't touch it. Maybe someone else knows where to find this.
I saw a guy on youtube stick a Talisman H1 in a bowl of sea water for 2 hours. It came out with just rust residue from ANOTHER knife. Pretty sick.

To continue with thoughts on hardness, you can think of harder implying more brittle. So, you have the hard, but more brittle edge, that holds an edge for a long time, and is capable of cutting/penetrating much better than a softer edge. However, don't forget 'brittle', but brittle is trumped by the softer steel behind it, and this softer steel serves as a kind of shock absorber, increasing blade strength. If you didn't have the shock absorber the blade would be too brittle and would be much more inclined to snap under impact. This is how the japanese built their swords for at least hundreds years. Reading back, I think Josh pretty much said this...
I thought that the softer spine would be a sort of shock absorber. I laugh when some complain when a blade is made overseas. When a blade is made in Japan, I'd imagine people would be happy. Katanas were the most deadly swords ever made. Nice to know there's the same Japanese ingenuity at work with the H1.

Anyhow, enough rambling out of me.

I'm really starting to dig the Salt series. H1 steel just sounds so cool and useful. I'll probably start off with a Ladybug before graduating to a Salt 1.