Black/Translucent Arkansas stones vs Water Stones

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wetdog1911

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Sep 29, 2002
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Would like to get back into using stones again, just feels more natural to me. Plus my wife cleaned and my Spyderco sharpener has been missing for months. None of these stones are cheap, so it would be hard for me to try the buy and compare route. HandAmerica is going to be carrying the black and translucent Arkansas stones. I have a good deal of their products and trust what they sell. I've also heard a great deal about water stones and would like to know if anyone has experience with both along with the pros and cons of using each.

98% of my knives are either Busse or Swamp Rat. Perhaps I should just forget the stones and build a slack belt grinder for the convex grinds? I was also considering a loaded leather belt from HandAmerican for such a grinder. I figured the cost of the grinder or the stones would come out to a bit over $100 or so. A flat primary grind (stones) with a convex edge (strop or leather hone) might also work. Steels are INFI, D2, and SR-101. SR-101 isn't too bad, but the INFI and D2 are a bitch. Hard stuff!

I like a good working edge, not very polished so it will slice, but still shaving sharp. Thanks.

Rob
 
i would buy Leonard Lee's book: The complete guide to sharpening. He covers waterstones, as well as oil stones and belt grinders, in a very objective way (with scanning electron micoscopy pictures of the stone matrix). His company is also a very nice source for sharpening (www.leevalley.com). He clearly favors waterstones over oilstones. For what you are looking for, waterstones are definitely cheaper than oilstones. All you would need for your purposes is a #800,#4000 combination which you can buy in decent quality (King stones) as a combination stone for $33 and two individual stones should run you no more than $45, while a soft and a black arkansas stone will run you about $70 for the same size. I would write more but I have only little experience with arkansas stones. I abandoned them early as I could never get them to work for me. I love my waterstones.
 
For general touch ups of a good bevel I use an extra fine diamond sharpener and then finish up on a translucent hard arkansas or the 00 Frictionite stone I have from American Hone company. (No longer available) Both put a very nice fine edge on the blade. I use water on either of the stones mentioned instead of oil and always have.

For convex edges I usually use a soft matte under some very fine sand paper like 1200 grit or finer and strop it unless it is really dull in which case you would need courser paper and then work your way to the finer one. As a final touch I strop in on a leather strop sharpener I snagged from a barber shop going out of business.
 
OK, 1 vote for the water stones. I do have a med Arkansas stone I've had for years, and have heard of the blacks, but what are the translucents? Harder? Softer?

I know with the water stones I would need some glass and compound to true them up. I would guess that the Arkansas stones need the same treatment after a time. Yes?

The book sounds good as I have some Lee Valley stuff ( 2 sided strop and compound) already and get the catalog.

Rob
 
Translucent is supposed to be the hardest one.

I think it would be a long time down the road before a hard arkansas had noticable wear on it that needed truing. I've had mine for over, well, I left home in 1979 and I had it then so it has been I'd say well over 25 years and it looks fine. That plus I still have the other side to use if it did start to look worn on the one I've been using.
 
Water stones do appear to wear a lot quicker esp. if you do a lot of sharpening. I find the black arkansas the best stone for the final finish but I don't believe they are necessary unless you are looking for that extra fine edge found on special knives. The soft and hard arkansas are the best in my view esp. if you get the 2 sided stones and not the mounted stones.
 
STR is right; when you're using the black and translucent Arkansas, you won't have to level 'em out for a really really long time. They're so fine that you only use them for finishing, so they don't get as much use as a soft or medium stone, plus they're so darned hard that they're more wear-resistant than japanese water stones.

Some people claim the translucent stones are a finer grade than the black stones, but others claim they're the same grade. I once read a post by A.G. Russell where he said that he weighed samples of both, and the black were generally heavier, and therefore more dense. More dense=more particles=finer stone. Of course, there are always exceptions to the rule and the color isn't a foolproof indicator of what quality of stone you actually have. The translucent are rarer, look pretty cool and are therefore more expensive.

These extra hard stones also need little oil, since they're so dense they don't absorb it much. Not as messy as some people say. Cleanup is basically rubbing your finger over the stone to bring up any metal particles, and then a quick wipe with a shop rag, and put your stone away.

My only advice is do a few searches, read what kind of maintenance, preparation and cleanup each type of stone requires, weigh the expense of each, and decide which one fits your lifestyle better.
 
Arkansas stones work slower than the Sharpmaker ceramic rods and will not give you a finer edge. I think they will be a dissapointment to you. A combination-grit water stone would work pretty fast and might be a better trade off if you want to try something different. If you got something like a 1000/6000 grit water stone it would cut fast and give you a fine edge.

You really don't need to keep a water stone all that flat if you are doing ordinary knife sharpening. A slight concave curvature of the hone will simply give you a very slightly convex finish to your edge. The only time you would be bothered by the curvature is if you were trying to work a full flat bevel on a scandinavian grind knife or on a wood chisel. Our old family oil stone that I used for years had almost an eighth of an inch depression in the center and it worked just fine.

A cheap bench belt sander from Home Depot would work well for rough sharpening of badly dulled or damaged knives, but you still need some type of fine manual hone for finish work. The combination of a belt sander and a Sharpmaker would work well. You might need to look around some to find the fine belts for a cheap sander. I like to have some 600 grit belts in the mix. Even with 600 grit belts you will wear your knives down fast if you use a belt sander very often.

Here is a chart of relative honing speed and edge finish for various manual hones:
 

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I have used natural stones since I was a kid. They do produce a fine razor edge if you take the time to learn to use them. I wont use any thig else. I have a soft bench, hard bench and a translucent plus a pocket stone. The translucent doesnt see much use execpt to put that final touch on it. The key is learning to use them. Some people just cant get the hang of them.
 
Have you considered a spyderco ceramic benchstone? I have an ultra fine and love it! (when I need something with more bit I prefer diamond hones though)
 
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For a finishing stone and even mor so as a touch up hone I really like the Spyderco ceramic bench hones. No water, no oil, quick and clean.
 
I will agree with the Spyderco benchstones for finishing, I have been using them with very good results. For the coarser finishes or reprofiling my DMT's are great, but the Spyderco ceramics can put a really keen edge on a knife for you, with much less maintenance than a waterstone. Get a Mr. Clean magic eraser to keep them unloaded and you will be very happy.

Mike
 
Mr. Clean magic eraser really? I'm going to try that. Just wipe them down with it?
 
I found it gets rid of some, but not all, residue. I still use an abrasive cleanser to get my profiles clean.
 
hardheart said:
I found it gets rid of some, but not all, residue. I still use an abrasive cleanser to get my profiles clean.
Click to expand...


I still use the AG Russell rust eraser also, but the Magic Eraser has been pretty good to me, without all of the little particles that the rust eraser leaves behind (though those particles beat the crap out of comet, water, and a scouring pad IMO). I also don't let my stones load up much, so maybe that makes a difference in the effectiveness of the magic eraser? Either the rust eraser or the magic eraser will make your life a lot easier if you are going to be sharpening several knives at one time with ceramics, instead of having to wash and dry them over and over again (less an issue with the benchstones than the Sharpmaker rods, but still an issue).

Mike
 
DMT has introduced a 8000 grit steel "waterstone" that can be used dry, never wallows out, can't be broken, and doesn't need special care.

Technology marches on.
 
Another vote for waterstones here. I still love my shapton pros.

Get a combo stone and a fine diamond plate. Fine diamond plate and coarse side of waterstone will give nice toothy edges, you can flatten the waterstones with the diamond plate, and you'll have the option to get a nice polished edge with the finer side of the waterstone. I'll bet you would like that edge.

If you go freehand, get the biggest stones you can afford, no matter which one you decide to get.
 
Hi,

I used to have a hard black Arkansas but gave it away for a Sypderco utra fine which gives a beter finish. The spyderco used to gall but someone in another foum told me to dress it with a diamond stone and now it works very well. Dressing it wore outa DMT diamond stone but was worth it. I have not tried japanese water stones as I cannot wait half an hour of soaking in water before using it. I think that the ultra fine polishing papers are just as good and less trouble. I did my shaving razor on the spyderco and went onto the strop and it turned out perfect.

Regards
Frank
 
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