Black under coating, a new process?

Ok, here's a NMSFNO that's been used one hour and has some coating wear near the edge. Is the black you see there the decarb underlayer peeking through ?

http://i33.tinypic.com/237lmq.jpg

Hard to say, but my guess would be that no, it's not decarb. Why? Because I see that same kind of black underlayer on my new Busses. If it was decarb, it should rust quickly, correct? Well, it doesn't. In fact, I can leave it wet for a day after chopping up wet wood, and it doesn't show rust. So, whatever it is, it isn't anywhere near as rust prone as the decarb finish on competition finished Busses.
 
If I was to hazard a guess, I'd say the outer coating is still doing it's job even when it's mostly worn away. That is, there's still enough there (thin film smear) at the chemical level even though it doesn't look pretty anymore. Like you say though, "hard to say".
 
That could well be the case. It certainly doesn't seem to act like 'bare' decarb acts on the competition finishes Busses, so something must be different.
 
My guess is that the black undercoat is primer of some sort as it looks too dark to be decarb. We need the Busse Crew to chime in on this and solve the mystery. :cool: Also, we need pix of ol'Nessie and Bigfoot. :D
 
I don't understand what decarb is.

I read and reread Jerry's post. I searched the internet and spent a bunch of time reading through steel techno-jargon.... and I still don't get it.

Is decarb something you put on a blade?
Or is it a residual coating from heat treatment process?
Or other?


I don't know... But, I got rust!:


Busse-HRwithRust1a.jpg


Busse-HRwithRust1b.jpg


Busse-HRwithRust1c.jpg


Busse-HRwithRust1d.jpg



And this INFI rusted easily. This is not from being left outside in rain or dew.

This knife grew this rust inside my house in a drawer.....

Granted: This happened after hurricane Ike hit Houston and I was without electricity (No A/C) and with Houston's high humidity (especially at night). But, still, this rust happened a couple of months ago while the knife was safe and sound in my house in a drawer. And I would estimate it happened in only about a week or two's period of time.

Most of my Busse and kin blades have been stripped and satin finished including SR-77, SR-101 and other INFI blades. None of my other pieces suffered like this HR.

I like satin finished blades. I wish Busse LE blades were more reasonably priced. :( :confused: ....

I will clean this rust off my HR. I know it will come off. But, I wish whatever was on these competition blades had been removed prior to leaving Wauseon to help prevent such easy rust.

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You only have rust on the decarb, not the Infi. The decarb is a layer of rust-prone metal that is on top of the Infi and was not completely removed on the competition finish blades.

Infi is not rust-proof, but is rust-resistant.

Get a Marine Tuff-Cloth and wipe down your blades periodically; you won't have any problems with storage-rust. :thumbup:
 
:confused:How do you remove the decard from the blade then?.

Thanks.....

I was actually suprised at how easily it came off of my NMFBM after I stripped the coating off. All it took was a little sanding. I started smiling 10 seconds into the sanding.

This is the finished product after BeadBlasting.
CIMG3599.jpg
 
You only have rust on the decarb, not the Infi. The decarb is a layer of rust-prone metal that is on top of the Infi and was not completely removed on the competition finish blades.

Infi is not rust-proof, but is rust-resistant.

Get a Marine Tuff-Cloth and wipe down your blades periodically; you won't have any problems with storage-rust. :thumbup:


Vox,

Thanks for the reply.... But, I must still be missing something.

I know INFI is not rust-proof and yet I generally don't have much problems with my INFI rusting - especially in my knife storage drawers inside my house.... I have a fair number of other INFI pieces.... I generally use Ren-Wax.
I have been trying to tell others that INFI actually "Can" rust for a few years now. Many people still seem to think INFI is pretty much as rust resistant as stainless.... :confused:
But, I have seen other INFI rust, so I know better... even if it is much more resistant to rust than most any other non-stainless tool steel - except (IMO) D2 which is borderline stainless. I am pretty sure I have seen Jerry say D2 is more prone to rust. But, I have seen differently. Still, for my purposes, INFI is "Generally" resistant "Enough".

.... Until INFI with decarb blades..... :confused:

My other INFI takes some effort to get to rust - although it will. I have seen it.

This Comp blade rusted "VERY" fast and easily along side and compared to many other blades including satin finished SR-101 blades that didn't rust near the same. I know SR-101 will generally rust MUCH easier than INFI. But, in a drawer in my house with some humidity, the Comp INFI blade grew rust quickly and much more so than many blades prone to rust including the SR-101 and some O1 and 0170-6 steel.

You say:

You only have rust on the decarb, not the Infi.

Then you say:

The decarb is a layer of rust-prone metal that is on top of the Infi and was not completely removed on the competition finish blades.

But, INFI is not coated with a "Different" type of steel.

So, if INFI is not coated, and has a layer of "rust-prone metal", then it has a layer of rust-prone INFI..... - called decarb (??????)


The pitting of the INFI alone could not have been the culprit for this rust. This HR just rusted too easily.
I was thinking there might actually be some corrosive residual chemical or agent left on the blade that "Promoted" corrosion from some part of the making process (??????) . :confused:

I have plenty of stripped pieces of INFI that never had this type of rust problem. And never rusted "Nearly" this fast and/or easily.
Some of those pieces were in the same drawer and untreated with wax or similar. I generally don't even bother to wax or treat my INFI. Although, I do (generally) wax and treat my SR-101.

As it is, you can confirm in the pictures, most of the rust is actually NOT in the pits - although some is. Most of the rust is at the "Machined" parts of the blade: groove and false edge on top. The rust is primarily in the grooves and false edge on both sides. There is some rust in the pits. But, 85% - 90% in the "Machined" areas. The false edge on top of my HR appears (clearly) to be cut by machine and not sanding belts. There are obvious machine marks on the false edge.

The blade's edge, choil, flat part of the spine and the exposed tang areas of the handle were obviously sanded after the handle was attached and there are no significant signs of rust in any of the areas that were sanded. So, whatever was on the steel prior to sharpening and handle finishing, stayed on the steel except where sharpened.


So, is this really a layer of rust prone INFI????

Or was there some chemical or similar agent used during some part of the machining process or heat-treat process that has been left behing that "Causes" rust??? :confused:


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:confused:How do you remove the decard from the blade then?.

Thanks.....



That's a bit tougher. I would say sandpaper or a scotchbrite pad/wheel.



I am sure you are right........ :(

Sadly, considering as UJ has shown the decarb / rust promoting process is (or at least is "Possibly") left under the scales, I "Feel" I should remove the hollow fasteners and scales to "Fix" my knife properly.
Since the decarb is "Possibly" under the scales, I have to "assume" it "IS" under the scales. :confused:

Considering all of the hassles and the fact that the decarb (whatever it is) is left on the blade and presumably under the scales, I am not as thrilled as I had hoped to be with the end results of the Comp finished knives.... It is not the end product nor at the savings I had hoped for. .... Although, I still like the Comp Edges. :thumbup:

As the comp blades are including prone to rust and no coatings, it seems they should be "LESS" than CG blades. :confused:

I wish Jerry would just make satin finished blades at reasonably up-charges from CG blades. $20 for small, $30 for medium and $40 for larger blades to save the coatings and put a decent satin finish seems more than fair and standard for the industry - even including older satin Swamp Rats and satin Scrap Yard knives.


For my part, if Busse is going to sell Comp blades and leave decarb that is prone to rusting and possibly under the scales, I would rather Jerry just sell the blades by themselves - sort of like the Spyderco Mule project. - Except instead of same blade in different steels, all blades in INFI available for different blade designs. :thumbup:
Even a better (IMO) would be to sell the blades by themselves with the "Option" of being able to purchase machined scales to fit. .... Hopefully, a "Kit" would save me some money that I REALLY need to save.... AND hopefully, I would not have to pay extra for something that I now feel I need to undo and redo. More hassle and extra work, but no savings. :confused:

.
 
I would get your comp finish HR beadblasted for a double cut finish....according to Jerry that should sort it...I have a JH CE and will do the same....I have a few others I want D/C finishes on....so will do a job lot.
 
I don't think I will bother with bead-blasting. Removing the "Visible" rust will be very easy with sandpaper.... Would be MUCH easier without CBT grooves though. :(

....... removing the pits is a WHOLE different story. :(

My concern (assuming I stay on my current belief that I can live with the pits) is having to remove the handle to fix potential rust issues there.

I "Know" I don't need to really worry or bother with any rust that may occur under the scales as it won't grow enough rust to effect the integrity of the knife. But, I hate rust. And I might loose sleep at night knowing or thinking I have rust under the scales of my HR. :o

In my best Mr. Smith voice: Rust is a "VIrus. Rust is a disease, a cancer of this planet. It is a plague."

AgentSmith049.jpg




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Generally, I honestly don't usually like the pits. But, in the case of the HR, I was going to try to keep the "Pitted" look. I didn't want to sand that much on this one.


However, I "DO" prefer satin and having seen the Satinized Mud Razors (following pics "Borrowed"), I may not be able to resist doing a full treatment (wish it came this way.......):


Busse-HellRazorwithbloodgroove.jpg


Busse-HellRazorwithCBTgroundoff-sat.jpg


Busse-MudRazor37makeovertosatin07.jpg


Busse-MudRazorstrippedandaHellRazor.jpg


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Vox,

Thanks for the reply.... But, I must still be missing something.

I'm not a metals expert but this is what I think is going on. When carbon steel receives its heat treatment there is a very thin layer of the steel that loses its carbon, the "decarb" layer. This thin layer is much softer and very prone to rust. This decarb layer happens to all Infi during the heat treatment.

Generally Busse removes this decarb layer (satin or double cut) or covers it (coating) so you don't have the rust problem. With the Competition Finish blades the decarb was not removed and was not coated so you end up with a rust-prone and exposed decarb layer. Note that the edge of the blade where you have the convex grind did not rust, that's because there is no decarb layer there... it was ground off. On your Hellrazor there is more rust in the creases because that's where most of the decarb remains.

There is not a layer of a different metal, but the "decarb-Infi" is what you see rusting. Remove that layer and you will be back to the rust-resistant "normal carbon" Infi that we all love.

Hope this makes sense. :cool:
 
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OK....to protect my blades.... the new ones, should I buy only LE or DC models? And or sending them to someone like Ban to have them stripped if they are coated with anything else....will that protect them? I'm still a bit confused about this whole decarb thing...
 
Here's the drill...

The satin finish blades (i.e. LE, customs, and some regular offerings like the BAD and GW) are very rust resistant as the decarb has been removed.

The double cut is almost as good as the satin but the double cut process leaves more pores for moisture so they are less rust resistant. These should also be decarb free.

With coated blades the edge is effectively satin so again, no problem with them as the coating prevents rust.

Uncoated/stripped blades may or may not have decarb. Exposed decarb is the problem. From what I have seen all of the Competition Finish blades have some decarb on them. If you strip the coating off of a knife and the metal has a black tint then you have soft decarb you need to remove with sandpaper if you don't want rust.

Also, get the Marine Tuff-Cloth, it works great. :)
 
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