Blade dexterity rating

See the Testing link in the FAQ:
http://www.himalayan-imports.com/faq/Testing.htm

The HI khuks are over-designed to take what would be abuse for most other blades.
Most are, in fact, heavier than traditional khuks.
Think of overbuilt for the times it's really needed---
There are a lot of HI khuks in the Middle-East that soldiers
expect to keep up with the task at hand,
whatever it may be.
Also, think of these as Mil issue Humvees
compared to traditional mil issue Jeeps.

The kamis expect them to be used for prying.
Matter of fact there was some hesitation when they were asked
to produce some that were lighter and longer.
In essence, the word came that, to paraphrase,
'these are swords, not khuks, don't let people try to pry with them.'

Not to say they should be abused,
but you should be aware of what each is intended & designed for,
and use it appropriately for that blade.
On the other hand, you'll be surprised at what is designed for.

18" AngKhola, use it like a hatchet or small axe,
use a baton to put a little more weight behind it,
pry it out of the wood if need be.
One field report on the 18" AK:
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=225531

Not that some of us don't occassionally try something that we shouldn't.
:D
But we don't complain when the edge chips or folds a bit
if we try to chop through something unreasonable.
And any blade that gets used gets some wear from that use.
Bill guarantees the blades beyond what most would consider proper use.
Most people know what they should claim under his guarantee,
and what is asking too much.
 
Don
Welcome to the looney bin.
Dean
I can't post from work, so I've been going nuts watching this thread.

Don, you said

" One of the sabers is Cold Steel's oddly shaped 1796 Light Cavalry Saber." Is that because the blade profile has a reverse taper? That's normal, I've handled a German original (they fell in love with this pattern and used it a lot) and a couple of other repros and CS's photo looks good.

As for measuring a curved blade, it's like a serrated knife, the "edge" is longer than the blade length. A bread knife can't cut a loaf that's too wide and a saber can't cut if the opponent is too far away.


Talking about the way blade angle can change the feel of a sword let's try an experiment.
Find a slightly curved stick about 30-35" OA, figure out where you would like the balance if you grabbed one end like a sword and tape some weights to the end you're going to grab until the balance is in the right place.
Now try swinging it both curved forward and curved back. When I do things like this I prefer the curved forward way but I like single heavy chops not a flurry of fast cuts in a fight.
Try a cut from high to the right (if you're right handed) diagonally to the lower left and then smoothly cut from left to right at waist height.
I think you'll find that it's easier holding the stick curved back. That's not to say that that cut will be easy with all sabers (like that one from CS)
Now try the same cut against a target like a pole or a tree, the curved back way should be easier because it can slide off the target while the curved forward will stick to the target. You don't have to do this with a lot of effort.


Finally, Don do you have any of the Medieval Fighting manuals? I've got the Secrets of German Medieval Swordsmanship And the Talhoffer book.
 
Originally posted by Red
Dean I can't post from work, so I've been going nuts watching this thread.
Click to expand...
Golly, back on topic !

This thread's big enough for both.

:D
 
Originally posted by firkin
"Secondary functions might be light brush clearing at a campsite. I don't foresee trying to hack through anything that a machete couldn't handle. So, let's say, maybe green branches or trunks of small trees or brush with trunks no more than 1.5" in diameter?
Anything thicker than that I'd probably use my machete or a saw."

hmm,

Unless you get one of the longer Kobras (which are really more like a sword), khuks start to shine when chopping or splitting things that are starting to get too big for machetes, unless one has a pretty tweaked-up machete, I think. With a convexed bevel (some tend to come a with some hollow in the grind now) they chop like a thin-bladed axe, and one can torque a little to clear chips if needed. They're thick, heavy, and the bent blade puts the sweet spot in a place similar to that of a hatchet. For clearing a lot of small stuff, most khuks will tire one more than a machete, and the reach is less.

Ghurkas are reputed to chop up to 4" diameter green branches with one stroke. Most here probably don't have the life-long experience to try and put maximum snap, draw, and body movement into a khuk swing without getting dangerous. It's not needed anyway--a few carefully placed strokes will take out most 4" diameter trees with ease.

You'll see.:)

An 18" Gelbu special or a Chitlangi might be ones to look at--the fullers make them seem pretty quick and they have a little lighter-feeling balance. 22 oz or lighter in weight if you want quick.

A two lb, 18" Ang Khola or "Baby" Ganga Ram
Special starts to get into the league of major wood choppers. A 4-5 lb 25" Ang khola has got to be a short splitting maul. My 3 lb Ganga Ram Special is about as big as I can manage for any length of time.

I know zip about swords.
Click to expand...

Ah, I see my ignorance is showing. It didn't occur to me that a Khukri might be more akin to an axe than a very large knife.

So if I understand you then, the machete is better suited for the LIGHTER stuff, and the more robust khukris for HEAVIER stuff.

Interesting.

I think I like these critters more and more (grin).

Thanks.

Don
 
Don, couple of other notes.

1---Have you read the Swordforum article by our own John Powell?
http://www.swordforum.com/articles/ams/kukri.php
A good read with lots of pix.

2---Are you yet aware that HI blades are zone hardened?
The kamis pour water from a teapot onto the edges of the heated blade.
The heat seeping back into the edge from the spine tempers the edge.
Sometimes we acid etch the edge to bring out the zone patterns.

3---If you like numbers you should check out the Dynamics link
http://www.himalayan-imports.com/faq/physics/Khukuri_Dynamics.html
Pen spent a lot of time quantifying characteristics of the various styles of khuks.
And analyzing/presenting the results.
Some of the illustrations identify differences not easily seen in photos,
or even with khuks in hand.

If he agrees to some forum standard,
and (most important!) we can identify a trend / average among types of khuks,
I'd like to see a NSHR for each of the blade types included.

4---The FAQ is more than FAQs.
http://www.himalayan-imports.com/faq/
Taken with the rest of the HI website, http://www.himalayan-imports.com
it provides a book worth of reference material.
Worth a first quick browse through it all,
then a further detailed reading.
 
Originally posted by ddean
Just general guidance:

Probably 15"-20" OAL (which, actually, is most of the models)

Don't get the BAS (British Army Service) first.

It's a great blade, some swear by them,
some like myself just see them as a blade
that can't figure out what it's good for.
It's designed as general purpose military issue.

But if it sings to you..................
Click to expand...

Dean, was hoping you could expand on the part "can't figure out what it's good for". How is it different than other HI Khuks that are 15" and 1.25-lbs? Or, are there no others?

Thanks.

Don
 
I think Dean is saying that a 15" AK will chop better and a 15" Sirupati will be more manuverable. The BAS is sort of a jack of all trades. It does a bit of everthing and specializes in nothing. That is why some of us here, me included, like it so much. I understand that there are other knives that will do specific tasks better, but the BAS covers a lot of ground and is great when you can only have one knife on you. Welcome to the Cantina.
 
Originally posted by Bobwhite
I think Dean is saying that a 15" AK will chop better and a 15" Sirupati will be more manuverable. The BAS is sort of a jack of all trades. It does a bit of everthing and specializes in nothing. That is why some of us here, me included, like it so much. I understand that there are other knives that will do specific tasks better, but the BAS covers a lot of ground and is great when you can only have one knife on you. Welcome to the Cantina.
Click to expand...

Hi, Bob;

Thanks for the welcome - and the explanation.

I'm still sorting out what I'm looking for in a khuk. For what we primarily want a Khukuri for, I find myself drawn more toward the Sirupati family. But on the other hand, being a fellow with a strong military bent, I've always had a fondness for jack of all trades tools. This is one reason I was looking at the BAS with some a fair degree of interest.

And now that Uncle Bill looks like he wants to do a two-for-one sale, I'm all the more intrigued with it.

Thanks for the advice.

Don
 
Originally posted by Don Nelson ...... a strong military bent, I've always had a fondness for jack of all trades tools. This is one reason I was looking at the BAS with some a fair degree of interest.
And now that Uncle Bill looks like he wants to do a two-for-one sale, I'm all the more intrigued with it.
Click to expand...
As I said, it's a good blade.
My first blade.
It's why I started buying more.
But I never wanted to pick it up again after I had others.

But,
2 fer 1 sale!
(conditional)

Go fer it!

Uncle Bill recommends the WWII model as THE all-around model.
Pala says the Gorkhas should carry the Gelbu Special.

Get the 2 BAS special today & you won't regret it.
Test one the hardest you can & report.
You'll have a better idea what you want to get next time.

:D
 
Hi ya, Red;

You wrote, "Don, you said

" One of the sabers is Cold Steel's oddly shaped 1796 Light Cavalry Saber." Is that because the blade profile has a reverse taper? That's normal, I've handled a German original (they fell in love with this pattern and used it a lot) and a couple of other repros and CS's photo looks good."

Me: Yep, the reverse taper. I haven't handled an original, but I own CS's 1796. It has an unfriendly guard with sharp edges that I really ought to radius a bit, but it is a cutting fool. I've only made one cut with mine on a standing cardboard sword box. A rather leisurely stroke from lower left to upper right. The upper third of the sword box just kinda sat there a moment until it figured out it had been cut from the rest of it, then it slid down and toppled the rest of the box with it. All I could say was, "wow".

You: "Talking about the way blade angle can change the feel of a sword let's try an experiment.

"Find a slightly curved stick about 30-35" OA, figure out where you would like the balance if you grabbed one end like a sword and tape some weights to the end you're going to grab until the balance is in the right place.

"Now try swinging it both curved forward and curved back. When I do things like this I prefer the curved forward way but I like single heavy chops not a flurry of fast cuts in a fight.

"Try a cut from high to the right (if you're right handed) diagonally to the lower left and then smoothly cut from left to right at waist height.

"I think you'll find that it's easier holding the stick curved back. That's not to say that that cut will be easy with all sabers (like that one from CS)"

Me: You might be right. I will ponder this a bit. The only comparison's I've done with handling have been with straight blades or blades curved in the more "conventional", "upward" direction. This may be why I don't perceive any real difference between them and straight bladed weapons in terms of acceleration, deceleration and changes in direction.

You: "Now try the same cut against a target like a pole or a tree, the curved back way should be easier because it can slide off the target while the curved forward will stick to the target. You don't have to do this with a lot of effort."

Me: No denying this, but the NSHR doesn't measure this kind of performance. It's goal is measure in some rather quick'n'dirty way, the ability of the blade to maneuver, presumably against a resisting opponent.

You: "Finally, Don do you have any of the Medieval Fighting manuals? I've got the Secrets of German Medieval Swordsmanship And the Talhoffer book."

Me: Yep. Got quite a collection now. Got the two you mentioned, plus "Highland Swordsmanship"; "Medieval Swordsmanship"; "Renaissance Swordsmanship"; and a book on Chinese Sword Tai Chi that I am having a real hard time getting into. I dunno. That Tai Chi stuff looks too much all "flowing" and "Moo Goo Gai Pan" for me.

I'm an aggressive "in-fighter" who likes to blow his opponents on their butt with an aggressive closing move, striking from a distance to put them off balance (or maybe even getting lucky and inflicting a fight-ending wound), and then depending on whether they are prepared or not, placing a follow-up cut into an opening (if they are unprepared) or making a feinting attack against the opening they've presented, but then changing the attack to an opening I hope my feint will create. And then just simply crashing into to take them off balance, following with another attack right after.

At least that's the theory (grin).

I'm sure Tai Chi has its uses. I'm trying to use it to get better balance and to transition smoothly from one position to another while maintaining that balance. But again, I confess its graceful, almost delicate moves seem at odds with my rather brutish sensibilities (huge grin).

Don
 
Originally posted by ddean
Don, couple of other notes.

1---Have you read the Swordforum article by our own John Powell?
http://www.swordforum.com/articles/ams/kukri.php
A good read with lots of pix.

2---Are you yet aware that HI blades are zone hardened?
The kamis pour water from a teapot onto the edges of the heated blade.
The heat seeping back into the edge from the spine tempers the edge.
Sometimes we acid etch the edge to bring out the zone patterns.

3---If you like numbers you should check out the Dynamics link
http://www.himalayan-imports.com/faq/physics/Khukuri_Dynamics.html
Pen spent a lot of time quantifying characteristics of the various styles of khuks.
And analyzing/presenting the results.
Some of the illustrations identify differences not easily seen in photos,
or even with khuks in hand.

If he agrees to some forum standard,
and (most important!) we can identify a trend / average among types of khuks,
I'd like to see a NSHR for each of the blade types included.

4---The FAQ is more than FAQs.
http://www.himalayan-imports.com/faq/
Taken with the rest of the HI website, http://www.himalayan-imports.com
it provides a book worth of reference material.
Worth a first quick browse through it all,
then a further detailed reading.
Click to expand...

Thanks a million. I appreciate it.

Don
 
"Ah, I see my ignorance is showing. It didn't occur to me that a Khukri might be more akin to an axe than a very large knife."

Yep, that's why large knives shaped like khuks or other KLOs (Khukuri Shaped Objects) tend to attract a bit of derision here, as you've already seen. That is, when they claim to be khukuris. Not that big knives shaped like sorta like khuks aren't useful. But it seems many want to mis-label a bolo as a khukuri for marketing purposes.

"So if I understand you then, the machete is better suited for the LIGHTER stuff, and the more robust khukris for HEAVIER stuff."

You gettin' it:)

"I think I like these critters more and more."

Wait until you've used a couple--I think you'll find the differences in feel and balance to be as intrigeing as swords, maybe even be surprised at how large the differences can be, and have the thing still feel "right".
 
Originally posted by Don Nelson
I'm sure Tai Chi has its uses. I'm trying to use it to get better balance and to transition smoothly from one position to another while maintaining that balance. But again, I confess its graceful, almost delicate moves seem at odds with my rather brutish sensibilities (huge grin).
Click to expand...
:D :eek: :D :eek:

It's been a long time since the straight sword was used "for real";
the Saber types replaced it a long time ago.
Taiji Jian form is a catalog of movements.
Until you're familiar with them it may be difficult,
due to the flowing connection perhaps,
to distinguish the applications.
Chop, flick, slice, pierce, thrust;
pommel strike high, neck slice with edge, belly slice with edge or tip, shoulder/knee pierce, achilles tendon flick/slice/pierce, thigh cut, edge push, eye pierce, wrist slice, belly pierce, throat pierce/............so many more.

It may flow, but the result is as brutal.
:D
You're right about the balance part.
Do you have an instructor?, or a book or video?
Part of the flow is the combining of defense, deflection, trapping, & attack.
Form training is just the first step to learning sword.
Once familiar with the catalog, the movements are extracted to practice applications.
Someone who just knows taiji forms does not know how to fight.

One of the problems also, is that Tai Chi is taught by many people for many reasons.
Few instructors really know & teach Taijiquan or Taijijian,
the martial arts of empty-hand and of straight-sword.
[Taiji incorporates other weapons as well; saber, staff, fan, and more.]
Too many times Taiji is taught as yoga-ish or dance-ish or other -ish.

:D
 
Originally posted by firkin ......Wait until you've used a couple--I think you'll find the differences in feel and balance to be as intrigueing as swords, maybe even be surprised at how large the differences can be, and have the thing still feel "right".
Click to expand...
Khukuris are still made & used 'for real' on a daily basis.
It's a tradition that is alive rather than being kept alive.
That makes the blades themselves more 'real' to me.
Although I have a continuing interest in swords.
And a huge respect for anyone interested in perpetuating
'real' swords & swordsmanship.

But I can take a khuk in my back yard and use it.
If I take my sword anywhere, it's to practice.
 
Originally posted by ddean
:D :eek: :D :eek:

It's been a long time since the straight sword was used "for real";
the Saber types replaced it a long time ago.
Taiji Jian form is a catalog of movements.
Until you're familiar with them it may be difficult,
due to the flowing connection perhaps,
to distinguish the applications.
Chop, flick, slice, pierce, thrust;
pommel strike high, neck slice with edge, belly slice with edge or tip, shoulder/knee pierce, achilles tendon flick/slice/pierce, thigh cut, edge push, eye pierce, wrist slice, belly pierce, throat pierce/............so many more.

It may flow, but the result is as brutal.
:D
You're right about the balance part.
Do you have an instructor?, or a book or video?
Part of the flow is the combining of defense, deflection, trapping, & attack.
Form training is just the first step to learning sword.
Once familiar with the catalog, the movements are extracted to practice applications.
Someone who just knows taiji forms does not know how to fight.

One of the problems also, is that Tai Chi is taught by many people for many reasons.
Few instructors really know & teach Taijiquan or Taijijian,
the martial arts of empty-hand and of straight-sword.
[Taiji incorporates other weapons as well; saber, staff, fan, and more.]
Too many times Taiji is taught as yoga-ish or dance-ish or other -ish.

:D
Click to expand...

No instructor yet, I'm sad to say. I work 30 miles from home - a 9 hour day, with between 1.25 and 1.5 hrs of commute on each end of it. And that's just the days where I don't have to work late, or go back in on weekends.

I know a person can't really learn a martial art from a book, but until I can make some changes to my lifestyle, I'm going to have to do the best I can - and even then I don't have much time to do it justice. Just keeping the house intact, making meals, cleaning, spending time with the wife, kid and hound dog, doing the bills and such seems to occupy the entire day and most of the weekend.

The good news is, at least I'm not trying to learn things out of thin air. Some years back I was seriously into various martial arts so I can at least try to glean from them that small bit that might be applicable to something else.

Don
 
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