Blade Show research?

As evidenced by your overview of the handmade market early on in this thread, you write better than you think. You have summed up an accurate picture of the handmade knife industry and aftermarket without ignoring the warts and moles. (Although you did leave auctioneers out as a part of that aftermarket!)

For those smart enough to pay attention to what you've written here you've give them classes in Handmade knives 101, 102, and 103--and saved them years in trying to figure this out for themselves.

Of course as I read this I keep waiting for the knives to come out from the deniers. I'm reminded of the adage that it is hard to tell someone who knows everything, anything--because they already know everything.

Only a couple additional comments. Joe Hanson, then publisher of Folio, the magazine of magazine management, spoke to my Stanford Publishing Course back in the day. He was one of the most savvy analysts of the magazine business (much like you in the knife business). He started his class with a simple statement, "The first obligation of a magazine is to stay in business." At Knives Illustrated we do that by trying our best to provide interesting and entertaining editorial that someone would want to read badly enough to subscribe or purchase on a newsstand. Unfortunately that does not always include giving free publicity to an average knifemaker who mistakenly thinks we have intentionally chosen to ignore their art for years.

There is one gap that I haven't seen you address in this advance course though, that I would hope you would elaborate upon--and that is the influence/danger/damage that EGO has on this market--especially from that of misleading more than a few knifemakers.

Of course that would be Handmade Knives 104. You up for that?
 
Hi Roger,

Excellent points as usual.

If a dealer orders several knives from a maker and they sell quickly - I'm thinking this is GOOD for the maker. Consider the alternative. If that maker feels he is getting value from a working relationship with that dealer, who am I to suggest that buying that makers knives from the dealer is somehow failing to support the maker?
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I think there is common misconception that dealers are somehow not customers.

Perhaps it is because dealers get a discount???

The discount is "Given" by the maker...it is not "Taken" by the dealer.

Dealer support early on can give a maker the financial support they need. As well as adding legitimacy to their work. As Roger pointed out, dealers will/can do the "vetting" for the collector. With no financial commitment on the part of the collector.

Probably because there is so little thought given to "business" within custom knives that some people are stunned when they hear about things like "discounts".

My confusion comes from those people...as just about everything they own was sold to them by someone who got a discount. :D
 
HI Peter,

Since you appear sensitive about negative impressions toward "dealers", there are those that seem to have little or no awareness what a fair market price is for what they are selling. They simply add their profit, and have NO regard for the potentional the customer has in the future to resell.
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Knife makers aren't the only ones without business skills. BTW, there are knife makers who use the P.T. Barnum adage of "There is a sucker born every minute"!

I once saw a knife maker trace a persons foot in order to create just the right handle for his knife! No the buyer was not a chimp.

Peter, this is another area where doing your homework comes into play.

You have to know what the retail price of the knife is. Which given the information available out there I can't imagine why someone wouldn't know the retail on a piece they are buying. But apparently some don't.

Just because someone claims to be a "dealer" doesn't mean they know what they are doing. Like any other businessman a dealer has to acquire the "Skill Set" necessary in order to become successful.

The two absolute best things you can do for your collection:

1) Do your homework

2) "Vote" with your wallet
 
Hi Uli:

I think the customer rules the marked; "what am I disposed to pay for this product" knives in this case.

1. A maker needs price X to build the knife and make his living from
2. The dealer needs price Y to make his job and living from

Than the best would be the customer pays price X+Y buying from the maker
and also price X+Y buying from the dealer.

If the dealer dont pay the price the maker needs than he has to look after a new make, after a wile because the maker is not able to make knives anymore, he is insolven.

Also we speek about a product nobody needs realy, its pure luxury.
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Ausgezeichnete Punkte! Offenbar sind sie Ein sehr klug Geschäftsmann
 
To address the survey/research question.

Companies who have a desire to know what their customers/readers want ask questions rather than assume they know what is best for their customers.

That is why reader's surveys are so important to publications, and to shows.
It is important information that is not issued for public consumption as a rule. Why give competitors the information that might give you an edge.

We started surveys to the exhibitors when I started Blade in 1982. Many of the things we did at the Blade Show was as a direct result of what the responses were on those surveys. I have always thought it strange that few other shows survey their exhibitors or customers. I think it is pure arrogance-- or stupidity.

At the Spirit of Steel Show we always survey our exhibitors, and have a few questions on their registration form about how the attendees heard about the show, etc. We live by those responses. (By the way we will be announcing the 2010 show date soon, hopefully at the TKCA show in Austin).

However, I think it might be interesting as a collector organization for a collectors group to survey their members and publish the results. It would be interesting to learn how many knives they buy each year, how much they spend per knife, where they buy knives, how many shows they attend, etc.
 
RogerP said:
The majority of my knives are pre-orderd peices directly from the maker. I enjoy the process, the input, and the creation of a piece that satisfies my personal preferences. That said, I have purchased several knives from Les - often by makers from whom I ALSO place direct orders. Just off the top of my head - Russ Andrews, Dan Farr, Matt Lamey come to mind. Why? Well, access to the knives. Les will have more orders in with the makers with whom he works than any single collector. It provides additional purchase opportunities outside my scheduled orders from makers whose work I know well.

If a dealer orders several knives from a maker and they sell quickly - I'm thinking this is GOOD for the maker. Consider the alternative. If that maker feels he is getting value from a working relationship with that dealer, who am I to suggest that buying that makers knives from the dealer is somehow failing to support the maker?

Roger
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I agree with that as well. I have bought from dealers too because they had the "right" piece. You mention ways in which dealers do earn their percentage, from makers and collectors alike. My preference though is to work directly with the maker. In some cases though, as with popular makers who no longer take orders, you have to buy them where you can get 'em... :)
 
Les Robertson said:
If you find a dealer who sells at or near the makers price you get the same knife, same quality and quicker. Often times the maker is not taking orders. However, because of that working relationship the maker has with the dealer. The dealer can get you the knife.
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That is a good scenario. :thumbup:
 
Good comments all! It's been educational. I have newfound respect for the dealer's role. Not something you should take for granted.

Bruce,
On topic of "research" I think you are the perfect one to ask an earlier question i had:

Can you describe the flow of the market, as you have seen it over the past decade or more, comparing market condtions of "customs" vs. "traditional collecting" such as Case, Randall, & antique knives?

Or, Is the "old" fighting to keep its place (tables) in the room, or the opposite - having a harmonious coexistence?

Always wondered about that..
Thanks,
David
 
2knife said:
Good comments all! It's been educational. I have newfound respect for the dealer's role. Not something you should take for granted.

Bruce,
On topic of "research" I think you are the perfect one to ask an earlier question i had:

Can you describe the flow of the market, as you have seen it over the past decade or more, comparing market condtions of "customs" vs. "traditional collecting" such as Case, Randall, & antique knives?

Or, Is the "old" fighting to keep its place (tables) in the room, or the opposite - having a harmonious coexistence?

Always wondered about that..
Thanks,
David
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The market is more trendy than anyone wants to admit.

The vintage market is strong, but you will not see many vintage collectors at boutique custom shows as they can't get in, and wouldn't pay the high table rates if they could.

Hit some of the NKCA shows or the Parker Sevierville shows and you'll see that the market is still viable, and strong. Especially if you have the right knives. We're getting more for most vintage knives at auction than we every have.

Due to the low-availability of high end vintage knives there is a lot of crossover from both vintage collectors picking up some handmades, and I've yet to take a handmade collection to auction that there wasn't some factory knives in it as well.

Some want to be in denial that a knife collector is a KNIFE collector. There are of course exceptions.

The aftermarket dealers tend to shy away from what I call vintage handmades, lesser known makers from the early 70's, ivory micarta handled knives, etc. but I would daresay that there has been a strong percentage increase in the value of those knives in the past two years. My job as an auctioneer is to sell the knives, period. When the heirs bring me the estate knives they do not want to hear what is hot and what is not--they want the knives turned into money. That has enabled me to discover things like the viability of the vintage handmade market.
 
Thanks Bruce!
Exactly the kind of informed assessment i was hoping to read.

I haven't been to the Parker's show in a few years.. A friend of mine (dealer) told me he recently went up on Saturday morn. but disappointed to find 60% of dealers had already left (by Sat. morn.!) .. Which makes one wonder, why the decision to move the start day to Thursdays?
David
 
The Thursday, Friday, Saturday show days originated when Wally Beinfeld moved his Vegas gun show to those days to fit with the SHOT show dates at that time.

It worked well there, especially for those of us who had to fly home from Vegas and work on Monday.

Over the years the vintage knife exhibitors, an increasing number of them retirees, would get anxious to get to the show, get there early and started coming in on Thursday night. For some shows that would set the tables on Thursday night, it became more and more common to open the doors early Friday morning, rather than 4 p.m. on Friday as had been done in the past.

Louisville was one of the shows that started letting people in first thing on Friday morning. As most dealers know, if you're there to buy you have to be there when the doors open to swoop down on the unsuspecting, the uninitiated, and most of all the underpriced! With the serious buyers now having to come in on Thursday to be there for Friday morning, everyone else followed like sheep.

One of the unwritten rules is when you have spent three days at what is really a two-day show, you certainly do not want to spend four days there.

When I started Spirit of Steel we tried the Thursday, Friday, Saturday format. A lot of exhibitors drove long distances to the show, and we felt that giving them Sunday to drive home would be easier. It was an incorrect judgement, as everyone always breaks down early on the last day. (unwritten rule No. 2).

I stopped it after Bill Adams left our show on a Saturday morning to go to a gun show in Dallas, and told me as he went into the gun show that morning he saw people unloading their knives and guns. "That tells me there is a big part of this market that still has to work on Friday and can't get to a show until Saturday," he said. Made sense to me, and we went back to the traditional Friday, Saturday, Sunday.

Jim Parker came to the show in Texas, liked the idea of Thursday, Friday and Saturday, and started doing his Pigeon Forge Sevierville show on Thursday, Friday, and Saturday. This allowed Jim to leave the show and get back to Chattanooga to attend church on Sunday. The retirees who were coming to shows out of habit and not sales, liked it. Jim's his son Buzz retains the policy to this day at Sevierville. A lot of the older exhibitors like the concept. But unfortunately they do not stay until 3 p.m. on the last day, but start breaking down around 12. (See unwritten rule No. 2 above).

Several show promoters have tried two day shows, and to the best of my knowledge no one has pulled it to be a better show than a Friday, Saturday, Sunday show. In some expensive venues it is a tempting proposition to cut back one day of ballroom rental from the promoter's standpoint.

One reason ending-on-Saturday shows are not as good is unwritten rule No. 2.

Too much of this business is like a bunch of sheep. One starts breaking down and everyone bails, buyers in the room notwithstanding.

The unwritten rule no. 3 is this is the knife business--that means sometimes what people do makes no sense at all.
 
Bruce,
Thank you for the insights. Great information.. Much appreciated!
David
 
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