BLADE STEEL RATING

Cobalt

Cobalt

Platinum Member
Joined
Dec 23, 1998
Messages
17,664
Sal, with all the steels you guys use, have you tested comparative edge holding for these steels? If so, what conclusions have come of it? In other words which steels hold the most in decending order. 440V, VG10, ATS-34, ATS-55, AUS-8A, AUS-6, etc. and what other steels if any, have you guys checked out?
 
Cobalt - your order is very close. ATS-34 & 55 are about equal in edge retention assuming both are properly heat treated. AUS-10 falls in between ATS and AUS-8. MBS-26 is a tad better than VG-10. We're currently making "mules" to test M-2, Talonite & BG-42. Actually they are all very good steels. What some have favor in edge retention, they may lose in corrosion resistance or sharpness.

AUS-8, 440V and AUS-8W (tungsten added) will get the sharpest, because of even grain structure.

Try to think of different steels being "Different" rather than "Best". Best changes. Besides, forumites would get bored eating only the same style burger every meal.
sal

 
Sal, thanks for the info. I actually enjoy getting knives made of different steels, because they have different qualities. Are you considering working with 420V or 3V?

Hey, do you want to test Stellite 6K or have you no plans on testing that stuff? I can send you a knife to test the edge on it. Of course, you need to send it back. It's a fixed blade slightly thicker than 5/32 and should give you some good comparative information. All I want is to know how it stacked up against talonite. It has more carbon and is rolled at a slightly higher temperature than the talonite 6BH. I'm currently having a knife made out of stellite 6K by a well known custom maker. If, I ever get a piece of talonite 6BH, I will be having the same maker make a duplicate knife out of it also in order to compare the two materials.
 
I have personally played with 3V - great stuff for cutting but it corrodes quickly and I don't think would be suitable for what most ELU want in a knife.

We have done some testing with 420V (we made a batch of "Q's" for Crucible that said CPM-420V cut out in the blade). Nice piece. Very tough to grind, the extra vanadium is tenacious. We are still testing to see if additional edge holding is worth the extra time and wheel cost to grind. Crucible makes great steel. Not all of is is best for knives. If it proves to be better for our needs (superior performance is our need), you can be sure we will figure out how to use it effectively.

We are playing with Stellite 6K, Boye Dendritic Cobalt and Talonite at this time. Once we have some conclusive info (computerized edge tester, etc.), we'll share.
sal
 
Cobalt,

From the makers' reports, Talonite is much easier to grind, consuming far less belts than the chemically identical but processed different Stellite 6Bh. They also report being able to obtain a razor edge which I can vouch for having 2 Talonite custom knives. That flies against the old saw about Stellite giving only a moderately sharp edge.

For mass producers like Spyderco, these cobalt alloys may present some obstacles that can't readily be overcome. Automated grinding machines use wheels which may not have a long service life with this stuff.

It seems that everytime cobalt alloys are discussed, there are concerns about Stellite being left out. Heck they've been around much longer with their products and didn't entice very many custom makers because of the difficulty working their material. Along comes Talonite with claims of 30% improved wear characteristics and some indications that the manuafacturers processing may have made the stuff easier to work. A few makers try it and find that indeed it does offer enhanced properties over the older Stellite in terms of ease of grinding and edge development. Even Kit Carson who has been a staunch Stellite user for over a decade is also using Talonite. The Rob Cude / Kit Carson collaborations and several folders on order from forumites as examples. Kit has also contrasted 6K and 6Bh.

From my personal experience and from reports from these various makers, it seems quite clear that Talonite affords the best mix of properties for maker and user in a cobalt alloy at this time.

I too look forward to reading what Sal gleans from his testing.



------------------
-=[Bob]=-

I did NOT escape from the institution! They gave me a day pass!

 
Well, I don't want to get into a debate here, but it still has to be proven that talonite is any better than stellite. Kit makes knives for people based on their request, but even his personal folder is a stellite folder not a talonite folder, so there you go.

I don't know about the old story of this or that, but I do know that stellite takes a descent edge and holds it longer than anything I have tried. The two have not been tested in a heads up comparison, which is what I'm working up to do. I have gotten the stellite and sent it off to have a knife made, but am still waiting for the talonite. While there seems to be no doubt as to the fact that talonite is easier to work, there is no conclusive proof that it holds a better edge or even an edge as good as stellite. Fact is that higher carbon content lends itself to slightly better edge holding. Also, harder to grind usually means better edge holding, just ask users of 420V, 440V compared to ATS. Stellite has 0.5% more carbon in it and the only other difference is in the temperature which both materials are rolled. Stellite is rolled at a higher temperature. If I ever get the two exact knives made up, the comparison will be on.
 
I agree with the bald guy heh. Talonite is by far the best edge holder of everything I have tried. There is not much I have not tried. I still have not tried Stellite, 420V, and 3V. The only one on the list I am somewhat curious about is Stellite. Although it seems to be easier to make a knife out of Talonit and it will take a razor sharp edge. All you need is a regular ole bench stone to do it. In fact it is easier to sharpen than 440V and a few others according to my knife sharpening best friend heh. I suspect dedritic Cobalt would be the easiest to make a knife from. Just simple logic I think. I just wonder how it compares with Talonite and Stellite. Sal how does it compare with those two when it comes to sharpness and edge holding?


Regards,

Tom Carey
 
O.K. Please enlightened my ignorance.

My simple logic works as follows:

Is CPM440V superior in edge-holding and strength to highcarbon steels such as 52100, 5160, A2, and 1095? Aren't most highcarbon steels cheaper and easier to work with than stainless ones? Because of the current development in various coating methods, can't we have cheaper, better blades made out of coated highcarbon steels?

sjc
 
Cobalt,

Kit's personal folder was made from Stellite when Talonite didn't even exist. To cite that as an example is a non sequitor. Sorry.

Your facts are still wrong. Stellite 6Bh is exactly the same chemically as Talonite. Stellite 6k is different chemically but there are trade offs between it and 6Bh.

There are several folks who will have both Stellite 6Bh, 6K and Talonites blades in hand soon to compare. It has already been established that Talonite is much, much easier to work of the three. (I leave Boye's Dendritic Cobalt out simply because although it cuts better than his Dendritic 440C, the dendritic is said to be much less tough and more brittle than the Stellite-Talonite family of alloys.)

I haven't sought to put down Stellite at all, but simply compare it to Talonite. Others, in a variety of venues, have seemed to want to discount Talonite out of hand as a "relabelled Stellite" or "stepsister". When so done, they reveal that they have not done their homework. I for one, applaud the increasing use of cobalt alloys as a move in the right direction regardless of the actual material used, Stellite, Boye Dendritic, or Talonite.

Let's give this a rest until the field and lab tests are done, okay?

------------------
-=[Bob]=-

I did NOT escape from the institution! They gave me a day pass!

[This message has been edited by bald1 (edited 16 February 1999).]

[This message has been edited by bald1 (edited 16 February 1999).]
 
Well, as I told the Talonite people, if talonite can hold an edge just as well as stellite and it is easier to work, then it is the winner hands down. What facts of mine are still wrong? That's an interesting statement, since you don't state which facts are wrong. I stated that Stellite 6K has more carbon in it, IT DOES! I stated that stellite 6K is rolled at a higher temperature than talonite(wether thats good or bad, I don't know), IT IS!

Actually it is your facts that are wrong: you state "stellite 6Bh is exactly the same as talonite", there is no stellite 6Bh. That is the talonite designation. There is a stellite 6B which is chemically the same as Talonite. Stellite 6K has roughly .5% more Carbon in it, for better or for worse.

Like I said, I'm not biased toward either, but when comments are flung around as to what is better than what, there should be some proof. So, yes I agree, give it a rest!

On to a lighter note, don't discount dendritic cobalt because I don't think that it is that hard to work and it may be the cheapest compromise for manufactured knives. I would not mind seeing a comparison of three knives out of, talonite, stellite and dendritic cobalt. I won't be using dendritic cobalt anytime soon since I would rather buy stellite or talonite but maybe someone will. Looks like Sal and Spyderco may be testing all three, so we may know soon.
 
Cobalt,

6Bh is not a Talonite designation. Check with Kit Carson. He has used Stellite in both flavors 6K and 6Bh.

Please check these things before you drop them as fact just as with the statement about Kit's folder. No question it's Stellite, but so what? ...Talonite was not available to choose from. Note I am not implying that Talonite would have been Kit's choice either.

Yes, there is a composition difference between 6K and 6Bh just as there is a manufacture processing difference between
Stellite and Talonite. It is simply wrong to state generically that there is a chemical difference between "Stellite" and "Talonite".

I guess that's what has been most frustrating on UseNet and some of the forums. I have no axe to grind among the different cobalt alloys. I simply wish to share my experiences and knowledge as an informed ELU with my peers. But too often I find myself in a role of having to counter misinformation about Talonite from folks who, for whatever reason, want to put it down in favor of their particular personal choice.

I got involved as one who enjoys trying out new things. I put my money down as a gamble to see if this stuff might work out well in a knife or two. It has, thankfully, exceeded my expectations, blown away the makers involved, and is being embraced by others as a viable option to otherwise established alloys if for no other reason than it being dramatically easier to work.

In addition to putting my money into finding out if this stuff was any good, I've spend time composing personal reviews of how these blades have performed for me, made digital photographs, and have put my personal credibility on the line regarding the accuracy of my reports. If the stuff had been no good I would have said as much so that others wouldn't waste monies following my path. But since it is anything but poor, I have spread the word that it is more than deserving of consideration. In so doing, the skeptiscm and misrepresentation of what Talonite is and isn't is almost tantamount to an affront to my credibility. Hence my vigorous posts seeking to maintain clarity and accuracy. Undoubtedly I should not be so sensitive and will redouble my efforts in that area.

Again, I await third party results to simply confirm that what I've been saying about Talonite is the simple truth. As to how it stacks up against Stellite, I have no vested interest other than saying Talonite is a damned cite easier to grind and achieves a superlative edge that cuts, and cuts, and cuts.....

------------------
-=[Bob]=-

I did NOT escape from the institution! They gave me a day pass!



[This message has been edited by bald1 (edited 16 February 1999).]
 
Bob, first off, I never stated that these materials were chemically different, I just stated that stellite had more carbon in it than talonite. I have the stats my friend, from both stellite and talonite people to prove it. Second stellite 6Bh does not exist. Stellite 6B does, again this is directly from the horses mouth, deloro stellite. The 6BH designation, if it's for stellite is incorrect. I also did quite a bit of research on stellite so I know I'm correct on that one. You state that 6BH is not a talonite designation, but Tom Walz disagrees with you and says it is, like I stated.

So please check your statements before you drop them as fact since it is you who was apparently incorrect. Again my facts were from Deloro Stellite and Northwest Reaserch Inst.

Oh and i'm not the one who got this ball rolling it was you. I just posted a remark for Sal to see if he wanted to test the stuff and here you come with comments saying that talonite can not grind easier(and I believe you on that) but it also wears better which has not been proven.

I have no vested interest in either, and am also in search of the best stuff out there.

SO IN CLOSING 6BH IS NOT A STELLITE DESIGNATION, 6K AND 6B IS. ACCORDING TO TOM WALZ 6BH IS TALONITE, BUT WHAT DOES STELLITE CORP AND TOM KNOW.
 
Spyderco appreciates all of the input...from all of you. We'll let you know wht we come up with. All Mules will be the same size, shape and grind. Edges will be uniform plain edge. Testing is done on a CATRA edge tester. We have no axe to grind and we believe all are dong the best job they can in manufacturing these exotic materials. We also appeciate the fact that they will bother to build it. We need to test to know which material, if any, we will use to make a knife with.
sal
 
Thanks, Sal for the response and I apologise for the bickering between myself and Bald1. We seem to be on the same side of thinking as to the qualities of the Cobalt base alloys. We just seemed to disagree on some of the nomenclature. Bob, no hard feelings.

Sal, I think Bob, Walt and myself would be most interested in these results. So if you could post these, that would be great. It would be interesting to see how 440V and 420V stack up against these cobalt base alloys, especially the Talonite and Stellites. I appreciate Spydeco's unwillingness for comlacency.
 
To make matters even more muddled Tom Waltz recently made a post on rec.knives stating that talonite can not take a razor sharp edge and cannot cut rope well, but does however work well on wood. That sounds like how Tom Mayo described Stellite.

-Cliff
 
Sal,

I would be interested to see whay you have found in your testing of the above mentioned materials and how the compare to one another. From my expierence Talonite beast 440V in edge holding and corrosin resistance. I have noticed quite a difference in fact. I would love to know how the others stack up. How could is denedretic Cobalt when compare with Talonite and Stellite?
 
Cliff, I don't know about the Talonite taking an edge well or not. But I wonder if it isn't just the difference in who is doing the edge putting. I would bet that Carson can put a good edge on talonite, just like he can on stellite. I have three stellite knives and two more on the way plus two talonite knives on the way. The three stellite knives have razor edges. But I have not needed to sharpen them as of yet, so I don't know what that will be like. We'll see.
 
Cobalt that is what I figured. You should check out Waltz's posts using deja news. They make for some interesting reading.

-Cliff
 
Cliff and Cobalt, you guys are absolutely right on the sharpening, it took me a couple times to get it right but you can get a good edge on Talonite. Kit wont have a problem getting the Talonite sharp. It feels different on the stone for sure, Tom Walz tells me it has 30% more lubricity than the average steel. (whatever the average steel is!)

------------------
www.simonichknives.com
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top