Blade Steel wikipedia article

i'm in favor of keeping even the discontinued alloys listed. many of us may get an older knife & wonder what the alloy consists of
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+1 :thumbup:

Carbon steel is a popular choice for rough use knives. Carbon steel tends to be much tougher and much more durable than stainless steel. However, sharpening carbon steel knives tends to be tougher than stainless steel knives. They lack the chromium content of stainless steel, making them susceptible to corrosion.
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The "sharpening" portion of this sentance could be deleted and allude to the fact that carbon steel is found to be more popular in rough use blades. Then you don't have to open that can of worms about the tempering having a great deal to do with the sharpening.

My Izula is 1095 steel, not supposed to be stainless, but it's temper makes it a really, really hard blade steel to get a razor sharp edge on it.

Also, softer carbon steels and stainless that I own, take a hair-splitting edge with a few passes on a Sharpmaker or DMT Diafolds.

I think if you guys get the steels listed correctly, that'll be a real acomplishment and link it to a page about blade forging, tempering or heat treatment.

I don't know w/o checking if one exists, but that would be a very controversial page to tackle. :)
 
Excellent project, I'm looking forward to see it develope. My knowledge is lacking, so I won't be able to contribute much. I did like the idea that someone posted about discussing how most people measure blade steel: edge retention, toughness, wear resistance, and one more 'official' one I think. You can then compare various steels based on those measurements.
 
corwise said:
edge retention, toughness, wear resistance, and one more 'official' one I think. You can then compare various steels based on those measurements.
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Edge retention in subjective, as it depends on a lot of factors, HT, geometry, edge sharpening angle, finish level, cutting method, cutting medium, etc...
Toughness as in charpy V notch value also changes based on hardness and dunno what else, so does wear resistance.
I did try to find some more or less constant characteristics of the steel to list in the steel chart, so far nothing besides names and chemical composition.
 
Probably, but it wouldn't be right if we post subjective or incorrect info. After all readers are counting to see valid data in there.
 
Good work on that article, but is it possible you're focusing more on "american steels"? What about 12c27 ,XC75 ,RWL34 and the chinese type steels such as the tenacious 8Cr13MoV and it's variants.
Anyways, it's a real nice idea to try to compile this information on a Wiki page.
I know when I started to get interested in blade steels, I had a hard time finding any concise and usefull info. Wikipedia was one of the first sites I went to. So ,no critiques here, just thought i'd mention a few European steels aswell.
 
IMO, it's way too subjective already with statements like " Cold Steel has made AUS-8 quite popular, especially because of their heat treatment[3]."

That's a shill from their sales literature. No one here knows a thing about their heat treat other than what is listed in sales literature. That means just opinion. Does anybody think Cold steel Aus 8 is heat treated better, or performs better than, say Moki?

Another example is "infi" . There is no such steel as infi, unless you consider "carbon V" a steel too. They aren't, they are merely names made up as part of a marketing plan.

Please, someone find a foundry somewhere that makes or lists "infi", or "carbon V". Find a standard listing in europe, NA, or Asia for these steels. They don't exist outside of the makers sales plans ( yes, I know they exist and have both. Performance isn't the issue, accuracy of facts is. ) Another example is their use of different names for 52100, and their S7 knives because of, IIRC, a "proprietary heat treat". That's disingenuous marketing IMO, which is fine, but shouldn't be listed as a different steel just because a marketing dept. states it is so. Stick to just the facts.

Until it becomes more objective with the facts it will be misleading, and a parody of sales literature.

In addition, the D steels are Die steels. A steels are air hardening tool steels, O steels are Oil hardening tool steels, Etc.. They are alloy steels, not carbon steels.

M2 hasn't been discontinued by foundries around the world. It's just not used in production sporting knives.

Boker and some custom makers still will list or make S60V/T440V steels BTW. I'd think it should remain as these knives in this blade steel will be showing up for decades.
 
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Nomad333 said:
I made an article on wikipedia regarding blade steel's.
I was wondering what you guys thought about it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blade_steel
Criticism is welcome, but I'm trying to keep proprietary steels out of it.
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Opinions. Half-truths. outright falsehoods. meaningless terminology.

I need only cite the first entry.

154CM, an American made steel that is considered to be of high quality.
CPM 154 is Crucible 154CM steel made using CPM Process. It is more widely used than 154CM.
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WTF does it mean "it is of high quality". That is a meaningless term when used as you have. "Quality" has nothing to do with whether an alloy is suitable for making a blade, even when you detail what kind of blade you want to make, which you did not. "Quality" has to do with how uniformly an alloy meets it specifications, not whether it is a good alloy for the proposed usage.

CPM 154 is NOT more widely used than 154CM.

Amateurs should not try to write technical articles. They fail, as does this "article". What utter balderdash.
 
IMO, it's way too subjective already with statements like " Cold Steel has made AUS-8 quite popular, especially because of their heat treatment[3]."

That's a shill from their sales literature. No one here knows a thing about their heat treat other than what is listed in sales literature. That means just opinion. Does anybody think Cold steel Aus 8 is heat treated better, or performs better than, say Moki?

Another example is "infi" . There is no such steel as infi, unless you consider "carbon V" a steel too. They aren't, they are merely names made up as part of a marketing plan.

Please, someone find a foundry somewhere that makes or lists "infi", or "carbon V". Find a standard listing in europe, NA, or Asia for these steels. They don't exist outside of the makers sales plans ( yes, I know they exist and have both. Performance isn't the issue, accuracy of facts is. ) Another example is their use of different names for 52100, and their S7 knives because of, IIRC, a "proprietary heat treat". That's disingenuous marketing IMO, which is fine, but shouldn't be listed as a different steel just because a marketing dept. states it is so. Stick to just the facts.

Until it becomes more objective with the facts it will be misleading, and a parody of sales literature.

In addition, the D steels are Die steels. A steels are air hardening tool steels, O steels are Oil hardening tool steels, Etc.. They are alloy steels, not carbon steels.

M2 hasn't been discontinued by foundries around the world. It's just not used in production sporting knives.

Boker and some custom makers still will list or make S60V/T440V steels BTW. I'd think it should remain as these knives in this blade steel will be showing up for decades.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nomad333
I made an article on wikipedia regarding blade steel's.
I was wondering what you guys thought about it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blade_steel
Criticism is welcome, but I'm trying to keep proprietary steels out of it.

Opinions. Half-truths. outright falsehoods. meaningless terminology.

I need only cite the first entry.


Quote:
154CM, an American made steel that is considered to be of high quality.
CPM 154 is Crucible 154CM steel made using CPM Process. It is more widely used than 154CM.

WTF does it mean "it is of high quality". That is a meaningless term when used as you have. "Quality" has nothing to do with whether an alloy is suitable for making a blade, even when you detail what kind of blade you want to make, which you did not. "Quality" has to do with how uniformly an alloy meets it specifications, not whether it is a good alloy for the proposed usage.

CPM 154 is NOT more widely used than 154CM.

Amateurs should not try to write technical articles. They fail, as does this "article". What utter balderdash.
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Go and edit the page!!! You don't even have to register to edit it!

Don't complain fellas, contribute, put those edit in, it's as easy as posting here. That's how Wiki pages are made. :) :)
 
The Mastiff said:
In addition, the D steels are Die steels. A steels are air hardening tool steels, O steels are Oil hardening tool steels, Etc.. They are alloy steels, not carbon steels.
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Already pointed out, I listed the same earlier, eventually it'll make in, either I'll do it, or someone else will.

The Mastiff said:
M2 hasn't been discontinued by foundries around the world. It's just not used in production sporting knives.
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Good catch.

The Mastiff said:
Boker and some custom makers still will list or make S60V/T440V steels BTW. I'd think it should remain as these knives in this blade steel will be showing up for decades.
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Ok, point taken.

knarfeng said:
WTF does it mean "it is of high quality".
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I assume original author was referring to the fact that 154CM was/is considered to be a premium stainless steel for the knives. We can rephrase like that. You can do it just as easy as I do. Alternatively, you can provide what would be appropriate.

knarfeng said:
CPM 154 is NOT more widely used than 154CM.
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Ok, very easy to edit that part.

I think the idea was worth trying. There's quite a few experts here who could provide input and constructive criticism, and the end result will be beneficial for may amateurs after all. No need to be too harsh.

Anyway, please, don't view that article as somebody's personal project or opinion, or marketing shill.
Whatever it is, it's supposed to be our common effort and obviously more experienced folks providing input is very important.

I don't want to make major editing decisions myself, honestly I do not have the knowledge required in many aspects. Provided there is correct info and consensus here, I can contribute with editing, even though I have my hands full with several projects on my own site.
It is a difficult article to write, no questions about that, and there will be many arguments, BF is full of the arguments regarding steel and its performance. Still, doesn't mean we can't come up with some sort of consensus.
 
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Look guys. Why reinvent the wheel?

Why don't you ask Joe Talmadge for permission to post the info in his Steel FAQ sticky in Wiki. I would bet he would say yes. I've seen it a half dozen other places.
It's accurate.
It's organized so that it makes sense.
It's authoritative. The man knows his stuff. He actually knows what he is writing about.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=794
 
knarfeng said:
Look guys. Why reinvent the wheel?

Why don't you ask Joe Talmadge for permission to post the info in his Steel FAQ sticky in Wiki. I would bet he would say yes. I've seen it a half dozen other places.
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1) Well, I host one version of the said FAQ on my site too, it's been there more than 6 years. I also try to keep it up to date, w/o changing it. Some steels got discontinued, or makers stopped using it etc, details like that. In other words it needs overhaul of some sort to make it more current.

2) There are a lot of new steels not covered by it.

3) It is single person's opinion/article and as such, it will most likely raise objections, i.e. putting it unchanged on Wikipedia.
 
Larrin's steel FAQ is really excellent as well, and includes the newer steels. It may be too technical for some, but definitely check it out for more info to add to the wiki.

I'm thinking, we can make this sort of a rewritten version of Talmadge's FAQ based on group input. The issue with his FAQ is that it is outdated, and is only one man's opinion (there are also some things on there that we know today may not be technically correct, but was the general belief at the time).

If we're going to include comments on steel sharpenability, please qualify it that it depends highly on equipment (to me, S125V is not much harder to sharpen than O1). Please no comments on edge holding, it simply varies too much amongst manufacterers. Even corrosion resistance of the same steel is different amongst manufacterers, but here general comments might be OK. We can include wear resistance, which is not the same as edge holding.
 
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+ 1

If you don't like what he's done, get involved! It's easy to stand back and criticize, at least the fella is trying to do something. That's the great thing about Wiki, its open to all.

And Joe's summary, as great as it is, is incomplete. There are many new steels out there he hasn't mentioned.

cziv said:
Go and edit the page!!! You don't even have to register to edit it!

Don't complain fellas, contribute, put those edit in, it's as easy as posting here. That's how Wiki pages are made. :) :)
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knarfeng said:
Look guys. Why reinvent the wheel?

Why don't you ask Joe Talmadge for permission to post the info in his Steel FAQ sticky in Wiki. I would bet he would say yes. I've seen it a half dozen other places.
It's accurate.
It's organized so that it makes sense.
It's authoritative. The man knows his stuff. He actually knows what he is writing about.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=794
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As a defense for my self, most of the information I used was his. Most of the "meaningless" terminology was taken from his article.
 
The main reason I have American steels is because of the Steel FAQ's I've found (talmadge included) just have them and a few Japanese steels.
Later on I plan to add others.

knarfeng said:
WTF does it mean "it is of high quality". That is a meaningless term when used as you have. "Quality" has nothing to do with whether an alloy is suitable for making a blade, even when you detail what kind of blade you want to make, which you did not. "Quality" has to do with how uniformly an alloy meets it specifications, not whether it is a good alloy for the proposed usage.

CPM 154 is NOT more widely used than 154CM.
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From research CPM 154 IS more common than 154CM.
Also this page is not about "which blade you want to make." This is not a "how-to" article. It is about GENERAL information. Also "quality" is a term used for a high standard of material or make, as a result of the Quality control and process control during manufacturing. Quality is also a word to describe how the steel stands up against others, in a purely scientific way. Otherwise if you try to tell me something like 420J2 is on par or better than either 154 material, you are a fool.

And the fact that you base your entire opinion on just the first article shows me you were prepared to just not like it.
 
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