Blade Steel.

richstag

richstag

Joined
Feb 22, 2007
Messages
9,008
Hi all,

I have been a Sebenza fan and user for a long time now. For years I saw comments about, "why does CRK stick to a certain steel at a certain heat treat". I used to just shake my head. The thing is, I have diversified my collection a lot in the last few years and tried a lot of different steels.

Right now I have an inexpensive Benchmade mini grip with cpm-m4 at 62-64rc hardness. I gave the knife a plethora of torture tests. Honestly it held up amazingly. Now this is not to bash or criticize CRK, but I have quite a few sebenzas and a great interest in new sebenzas but the blade steel is holding me back.

I won't carry any of my S30V senbenza's because the cpm-m4 far outperforms it in all aspects. I even made a request to custom makers to commission the creation of a replacement blade for one of my sebenza's. Thats how bad I want upgraded steel in one. It didn't quite pan out though.

So, my question is, what is the reality of CRK ever expanding their steel choices? I know about the damascus and its not what I want. Just hoping for a friendly grouping of feedback on this one. Maybe something good could come from it?

If it turns into garbage I fully expect a mod to lock this...

Thanks,

Kevin
 
Hey Kevin, thanks for sharing your thoughts. You are going to get mixed answers but at the end it will most likely come down to this, the chances are very slim, specialy given the fact that CRK switched steels not too long ago, relatively speaking.
Let me ask you this, why are you so concerned about edge retention, what kind of materials are you having to deal with? M4 holds and edge really good but that doesn't necessarily make it better than let's say s30 or s35vn,which have other kind of properties, with edge retention comes some disadvantages as well, so it comes down to the kind of use you are putting it through.
 
Thank you for your thoughts. I use my knife for everything. From office duty, to in the woods, to food, to construction and mainly commercial flooring. The thing is I have not found any trade off for the superior edge retention. This stuff is incredibly strong and tough. I have a very comprehensive thread about the kind of work I have put the benchmade through and I agree it is applicable, but the only trade off I can see is corrosion resistance. I have honest feedback on that too, but it doesn't seem to be an issue in my experience.

Let me put it this way, if the advantages I found in CPM-M4 at 62-64 were not greatly utilized in my day to day, I would not be having this thought process. I appreciate your feedback and don't mind elaborating on the foundations of my thoughts.

I had moved back to traditionals for a while, 1095 and the likes. Real easy to sharpen with a natural stone and especially out on a work site. Then I moved into a line of work with MUCH more abrasive medias to cut and I dropped them very quickly. I was sharpening a lot of times in a day... way too many.

I used my other knives and found the cpm-m4 and WOW, Im not joking its pretty amazing all around. I know there are knives that will give better abrasion resistance and edge retention in certain applications, but this stuff gives me a LOT without losing toughness. IMO, it is much tougher than my S30v CRK's.

Kevin

magicblade said:
Hey Kevin, thanks for sharing your thoughts. You are going to get mixed answers but at the end it will most likely come down to this, the chances are very slim, specialy given the fact that CRK switched steels not too long ago, relatively speaking.
Let me ask you this, why are you so concerned about edge retention, what kind of materials are you having to deal with? M4 holds and edge really good but that doesn't necessarily make it better than let's say s30 or s35vn,which have other kind of properties, with edge retention comes some disadvantages as well, so it comes down to the kind of use you are putting it through.
Click to expand...
 
Also, I understand what you mean about the recent blade steel switch, but maybe just an additional line? Maybe a limited run?

I haven't been in this section for years to know how things have been going with this topic.
 
I for one would most definitely appreciate a CRK or CRK-approved option to increase the hardness a point or two. I think that would be a great sweet spot for S35V.
 
A point or two does make a difference in edge holding. That being said, my 25 made in March of this year, was notably better at edge holding and resisting deformation than my 21 insingo was. Has anyone else had this experience with newer crks?

M4 is am amazing steel. The only trade off I have seen is it is not as resistant to corrosion as s35vn.

I would love to see crk switch to s90v or cts 204p/m390 at about 60-61 HRC.
 
While I would love to see a CTS-204P version of CRK's, I do understand why they continue to do things as they have been. The knife aficionado - more specifically the edge retention aficionados - may like and appreciate the higher edge retention at the cost of a decrease in sharpenability, corrosion resistance, and toughness.

The average knife user (even of CRK's), however, probably wouldn't be able to tell the difference between the two in practice. They use the knife until it is dull, and use it in ways that would make most of us cringe (e.g. scrapping with the edge, prying, etc.). For these type of people what CRK does is exactly what they need. I'd be willing to hazard a guess that the majority of CRK's customer base are average users and not knife aficionados.
 
Cynic2701 said:
While I would love to see a CTS-204P version of CRK's, I do understand why they continue to do things as they have been. The knife aficionado - more specifically the edge retention aficionados - may like and appreciate the higher edge retention at the cost of a decrease in sharpenability, corrosion resistance, and toughness.

The average knife user (even of CRK's), however, probably wouldn't be able to tell the difference between the two in practice. They use the knife until it is dull, and use it in ways that would make most of us cringe (e.g. scrapping with the edge, prying, etc.). For these type of people what CRK does is exactly what they need. I'd be willing to hazard a guess that the majority of CRK's customer base are average users and not knife aficionados.
Click to expand...

CRK owners aren't the average knife user and I highly doubt any would use a $400 knife to scrape. I've seen way too many posts of people freaking out that someone opened their CRK too fast to imagine those knives being subjected to hard use or abuse. The average knife user has a cheap knife from Walmart or somewhere similar, not a $400 CRK. I'd love to see pictures of a CRK used to scrape, pry, etc, but I haven't seen one yet on here.

Chris Reeve has his own reasons for the choices he makes. In the factory tour video I believe he talked about the importance of corrosion resistance. CPM-M4 has low corrosion resistance compared to S30V or S35VN, so that isn't in line with the product he wants to create. Additionally, since he uses 1 steel at a time (ignoring the special damascus options) it makes things very consistent and much easier to manufacture his knives than if he were to offer a variety of steels that customers could choose from.
 
Fanglekai said:
CRK owners aren't the average knife user and I highly doubt any would use a $400 knife to scrape. I've seen way too many posts of people freaking out that someone opened their CRK too fast to imagine those knives being subjected to hard use or abuse. The average knife user has a cheap knife from Walmart or somewhere similar, not a $400 CRK. I'd love to see pictures of a CRK used to scrape, pry, etc, but I haven't seen one yet on here.

Chris Reeve has his own reasons for the choices he makes. In the factory tour video I believe he talked about the importance of corrosion resistance. CPM-M4 has low corrosion resistance compared to S30V or S35VN, so that isn't in line with the product he wants to create. Additionally, since he uses 1 steel at a time (ignoring the special damascus options) it makes things very consistent and much easier to manufacture his knives than if he were to offer a variety of steels that customers could choose from.
Click to expand...

Have you watched some of the interviews with Chris Reeve? Here's one that is useful to watch from the 4:50 - 5:35 mark.

[video=youtube;4QiEnhA3n0A]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=4QiEnhA3n0A#t=292[/video]

Note his comments on the "average user." This forum skews the population towards the knife aficionado, so I'm not sure that Bladeforums is a good representation of the average knife user.

Here's my Sebenza that I've not gone easy on. I've used it to help with roofing (and also managed to drop off the roof), open cans, scrape super glue, and have snapped the tip off of twice now. It may be hard to see, but the CRK finish on the titanium is gone, and the scales are pretty much just scratches now. At one point it was run over by a car.




 
Keep in mind I'm not saying an S30v or newer can't work. I actually KNOW it can and I am one that has used mine hard. My brother's from 2007 has been seriously neglected and used for things that would make folks cringe. It's all good. My question is not about good enough, it's about better. I know CPM-M4 is better and I know it's actually easier to sharpen. You want diamond for these steels and I found with diamond and the right strop/compound combo cpm-m4 is quicker and easier to keep sharp.

The corrosion resistance thing is kind of a wash for me. I have had cpm-m4 in my pocket drenched in sweat, on saltwater, rained on, in rivers, full of sand, covered in chemicals and food. The only rust I got was on the laser etched logo. The edge and cam tang never rusted.

Kevin
 
For some reason reading the words in bold italic blue I thought about it differently. The Damascus should be an example that CRK CAN do limited runs with varying steel types. My thinking would be keep the standards (current stainless), keep the damascus for the breathtaking pieces but ADD a line of real high performance steel. Limited just like the Damascus, just marketed to a group that wants ALL the amazing qualities and design of the sebenza BUT with a higher performance steel. I can get titanium grips for the bencmade and kind of make it Sebenza like, but I have always and will always love the true sebenza.

Kevin

Fanglekai said:
CRK owners aren't the average knife user and I highly doubt any would use a $400 knife to scrape. I've seen way too many posts of people freaking out that someone opened their CRK too fast to imagine those knives being subjected to hard use or abuse. The average knife user has a cheap knife from Walmart or somewhere similar, not a $400 CRK. I'd love to see pictures of a CRK used to scrape, pry, etc, but I haven't seen one yet on here.

Chris Reeve has his own reasons for the choices he makes. In the factory tour video I believe he talked about the importance of corrosion resistance. CPM-M4 has low corrosion resistance compared to S30V or S35VN, so that isn't in line with the product he wants to create. Additionally, since he uses 1 steel at a time (ignoring the special damascus options) it makes things very consistent and much easier to manufacture his knives than if he were to offer a variety of steels that customers could choose from.
Click to expand...
 
Thought about it some more. I hope everyone reading this realizes I don't think I am smarter than CRK or anything like that. Im just a knife user. The thought is, what would an option like a "custom shop" take for a company to provide? Thinking they could offer a few blade steel options. That way the worry of putting out knives that may let down the average knife user would not be so prominent? If CPM-M4 were to be offered in the custom shop CRK could put a big RED warning about corrosion ?

Trust me, I have admired CRK since I first found out about them. I just want a CPM-M4 Sebenza at a high hardness and not a conservative "average knife user" hardness.
 
You should buy an older Sebenza. The ones made of BG-42 were HT to 60-61. I've seen them for sale on the exchange and the HRC is listed on the birth certificates.
 
Thanks for the idea, but thats not what I was thinking. I do appreciate it though.

Locutus D'Borg said:
You should buy an older Sebenza. The ones made of BG-42 were HT to 60-61. I've seen them for sale on the exchange and the HRC is listed on the birth certificates.
Click to expand...
 
Doesnt chris reeve pick sv35n for its corrosion properties? I remember him saying there are many harder steels but he wanted this one for all around good attributes.

me personally, think CRK should make extra blades available in different steel and damascus.
 
I read somewhere on another thread about someone sending the knife to change the heat treatment and increase HRC by 1.5 -2 points, so that will be another option for you if edge retention is that important for your job.
 
I think that for my uses, the current steel works just fine. I think that CRK wants to keep things simple (as least for SS) for the sake of consistently. I am not saying that I would not buy one in a "super steel", but I would not want to pay a huge premium for it.
 
CRK have a design philosophy that they stick to solidly, I personally agree with it and it has got them this far. :) That said I would also like to see some high wear stainless steels used, as mentioned something like S90V at ~61 HRc would be interesting. :thumbup:
 
I love my Sebs. Will I keep buying them with the current steel offerings? Yes.

If they made some "custom shop" ones with S90V or other more exotic steels would I buy those too? You bet!!!
 
Yeah guys, I hear you about not messing with success. It's probably just an unattainable dream of mine.

Kevin
 
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