Blade Steel.

Locutus D'Borg said:
CRKs and Hinderers are constantly being attacked for one thing or another. It boils down to the fact that people are irritated that they are expensive, thus they must tear them down. "My ZT is better than any Hinderer" "My Sage 2 is far superior to a Sebenza" and so on.

High quality objects can be expensive. You can buy them or not. But why the hatred? Chris Reeve is an expert in his field and will chose the best steel for his purposes and treat it appropriately. No one is forcing anyone to buy his knives.
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:thumbup:
 
Blues said:
I don't have a dog in this fight but will paraphrase some thoughts from custom knife maker Jerry Halfrich, a very close friend of mine whom I have had this very discussion with many times over the years.

Jerry was one of the very few makers to experiment early on with making blades with CPM M4 steel and his blades won a variety of cutting competitions. Few makers know "sharp" like Jerry does.

That said, having worked with myriad steels over the years, Jerry prefers CPM-154 for most of his knives (and they are intended for hard use in the field...from hunting to wilderness use).

The reason for his position is "balance". Hardness, toughness, corrosion resistance, ability to sharpen in the field, edge holding etc are all parts of the equation in his search for "balance".

And while Jerry is impressed with what he has been able to achieve with M4 over the years, he always recommends "balance" over all things (even to the point of often dissuading his customers from seeking the "super steel" they originally sought).

It seems to me that Chris Reeve is similarly seeking "balance" with his offerings.

Having said all that, there is no perfect steel and as with most everything else in life, any choice involves compromise.

That's all I got.
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Words of wisdom. . .
 
Blues said:
I don't have a dog in this fight but will paraphrase some thoughts from custom knife maker Jerry Halfrich, a very close friend of mine whom I have had this very discussion with many times over the years.

Jerry was one of the very few makers to experiment early on with making blades with CPM M4 steel and his blades won a variety of cutting competitions. Few makers know "sharp" like Jerry does.

That said, having worked with myriad steels over the years, Jerry prefers CPM-154 for most of his knives (and they are intended for hard use in the field...from hunting to wilderness use).

The reason for his position is "balance". Hardness, toughness, corrosion resistance, ability to sharpen in the field, edge holding etc are all parts of the equation in his search for "balance".

And while Jerry is impressed with what he has been able to achieve with M4 over the years, he always recommends "balance" over all things (even to the point of often dissuading his customers from seeking the "super steel" they originally sought).

It seems to me that Chris Reeve is similarly seeking "balance" with his offerings.

Having said all that, there is no perfect steel and as with most everything else in life, any choice involves compromise.

That's all I got.
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Well said Elliott. I had a similar conversation with Jerry a few years ago.
 
MostMenAreRuthless said:
Words of wisdom. . .
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Ken44 said:
Well said Elliott. I had a similar conversation with Jerry a few years ago.
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Thanks, gents. Jerry knows a thing or two about getting the most out of steel and putting a fine edge on a blade. (I am proud to say I own enough of 'em to attest to it.)

I've sent him a number of knives to play with over the years, (fixed and folders), which featured everything from forged 52100 and 5160 as well as a variety of other carbon and stainless steels...and at the end of the day, regardless of how impressed he might be with the fine grain, edge retention or other attributes of any given blade steel, he always returns to his mantra and devotion to "balance". The man knows his craft but never stops adding to his knowledge.

Thanks again for the kind words. I've learned a lot over the years through my association with gentlemen like Jerry.
 
Wow, I am really happy how well this conversation turned out and thank everyone that took the time to contribute meaningful posts.

I have to say it again, I am not trying to go against CRK's decisions or suggest changes. It was simply feeling out the chances of a CPM-M4 option and even as Elliot mentioned, CPM-154 would be another nice option, but for me I would want CPM-M4. Everyone will have a balance of their own IMHO.

Thanks so much guys,

Kevin
 
I think that part of the reason this even gets discussed is that Mr. Reeve has chosen to be on the light end of the hardness scale - which is perfectly fine - but it seems some of the production knives appear to be on the low end of the range chosen (perhaps occasionally a point or so under). I truly think a one point higher spec would be well received.
 
Hairlesstwinkie said:
How do you know what other users' experiences are instead of just assuming what they're saying is from "magazines" and "non experts"? I've personally found the S35VN at 58-59 to be lacking. From daily use to some cutting tests, S35VN under performs. I can never get the performance that I want out of it. For the prices of those knives, I'm rather disappointed. I've received much much better performance from some of my sub-200 knives. It's through those disappointments that led me to eventually looking to see if I had lemons, and apparently others are experiencing the same.

If you're happy with CRKs and find them to be adequate for your needs then great to hear. For some of us, they are not.
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Everyone has an opinion, my is though experience of owning 90 CRK of ALL kinds, so I have the experience from daily use to back up my thoughts. I do not waste my time doing " cutting tests ". Who cares if a sebenza will cut 200 pieces of rope, can cut 1000 slices of paper....??? And GOD knows what these " cutting tests " consist of. Who cares that CRK steel will not get sharp enough to shave with....???....I would never shave with my sebenza anyways...!!! I USE mine daily. I have cut tons of cardboard ( which is a edge killer in ANY steel ), opened and packaged up packages for shipment, cut paper, food prep, cut tar paper and scoured shingles, whittled, field dressed deer, skinned deer......You name it. Real World Things, NOT " cutting tests ". During all of this, ANY CRK steel I have used have performed as I would expect.........I once started a thread or posted in someone else's what I thought of all the blade steels CRK has used. Look it up. For the record, S30V has always been my favorite Sebenza Steel.

I will state again. CRK helped to develop S30V & S35VN. Chris KNOWS what the best Heat Treat is for each steel. The HT he uses is what is Best for that particular steel Some steels might hold an edge longer with a higher HT, but are impossible to sharpen. Others may sharpen super easy with a lower HT, but not hold an edge at all. And TRUST ME, ONE degree of HT does not make or break a steel. Some other knives may cut better, but look at the blades. Some are super thin. They may seem sharper, but actually have a weaker edge as its thinner.

Like I said, everyone has an opinion. But they should be based on real world use, not so called " cutting tests ".
 
Very well said. We have free speech, but unless they are actually metallurgists, people should take care in making authoritative critiques of a legendary knife-maker.

nyefmaker said:
Everyone has an opinion, my is though experience of owning 90 CRK of ALL kinds, so I have the experience from daily use to back up my thoughts. I do not waste my time doing " cutting tests ". Who cares if a sebenza will cut 200 pieces of rope, can cut 1000 slices of paper....??? And GOD knows what these " cutting tests " consist of. Who cares that CRK steel will not get sharp enough to shave with....???....I would never shave with my sebenza anyways...!!! I USE mine daily. I have cut tons of cardboard ( which is a edge killer in ANY steel ), opened and packaged up packages for shipment, cut paper, food prep, cut tar paper and scoured shingles, whittled, field dressed deer, skinned deer......You name it. Real World Things, NOT " cutting tests ". During all of this, ANY CRK steel I have used have performed as I would expect.........I once started a thread or posted in someone else's what I thought of all the blade steels CRK has used. Look it up. For the record, S30V has always been my favorite Sebenza Steel.

I will state again. CRK helped to develop S30V & S35VN. Chris KNOWS what the best Heat Treat is for each steel. The HT he uses is what is Best for that particular steel Some steels might hold an edge longer with a higher HT, but are impossible to sharpen. Others may sharpen super easy with a lower HT, but not hold an edge at all. And TRUST ME, ONE degree of HT does not make or break a steel. Some other knives may cut better, but look at the blades. Some are super thin. They may seem sharper, but actually have a weaker edge as its thinner.

Like I said, everyone has an opinion. But they should be based on real world use, not so called " cutting tests ".
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nyefmaker said:
Everyone has an opinion, my is though experience of owning 90 CRK of ALL kinds, so I have the experience from daily use to back up my thoughts. I do not waste my time doing " cutting tests ". Who cares if a sebenza will cut 200 pieces of rope, can cut 1000 slices of paper....??? And GOD knows what these " cutting tests " consist of. Who cares that CRK steel will not get sharp enough to shave with....???....I would never shave with my sebenza anyways...!!! I USE mine daily. I have cut tons of cardboard ( which is a edge killer in ANY steel ), opened and packaged up packages for shipment, cut paper, food prep, cut tar paper and scoured shingles, whittled, field dressed deer, skinned deer......You name it. Real World Things, NOT " cutting tests ". During all of this, ANY CRK steel I have used have performed as I would expect.........I once started a thread or posted in someone else's what I thought of all the blade steels CRK has used. Look it up. For the record, S30V has always been my favorite Sebenza Steel.

I will state again. CRK helped to develop S30V & S35VN. Chris KNOWS what the best Heat Treat is for each steel. The HT he uses is what is Best for that particular steel Some steels might hold an edge longer with a higher HT, but are impossible to sharpen. Others may sharpen super easy with a lower HT, but not hold an edge at all. And TRUST ME, ONE degree of HT does not make or break a steel. Some other knives may cut better, but look at the blades. Some are super thin. They may seem sharper, but actually have a weaker edge as its thinner.

Like I said, everyone has an opinion. But they should be based on real world use, not so called " cutting tests ".
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You know, I agree with much of this, but I assure you, CRK steel will get sharp enough to shave with.
 
Blues said:
It seems to me that Chris Reeve is similarly seeking "balance" with his offerings.

Having said all that, there is no perfect steel and as with most everything else in life, any choice involves compromise.

That's all I got.
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A blade is more than its steel...a knife is more than its blade. :thumbup:
 
Sometimes I feel like a CRK sometimes I don't... And if I wanted something that cuts better I'd use my light saber as my EDC ;) But for the time being I'll stick with my CRK's and Hinderer's :)
 
I don't agree with a lot of this but I am not disagreeing in a nasty or combative way. The cpm-m4 will cut cardboard all day long and stay sharp. I have had to with it. It will also cut carpet, vinyl and all other types of commercial flooring, whittle hard woods, cut daily office light duty jobs with razor sharp grace. The thing is, I have used Sebenzas and I don't need to have 90 of them to tell you how they can perform. Admirable is my opinion of them. If I had not tried the CPM-M4 I would not have known any difference. CPM-M4 is NOT impossible to sharpen. Far from. Maybe SLOWER but actually EASIER. That harder tool steel is "crisp" to hone. Thats the best way I can describe it. S30v can remind me of stropping plado (severe exaggerated visualization). When I can use my knife for a month with only stropping and have it POP hairs, clean cut architectural floor plans and other office duty AND go out to work sites and hold up to SERIOUS beatings (MUCH more abrasive than cardboard), well, THAT is a steel that really gains my interest.

I am not trying to sound harsh, but I feel it needs to be said. What I am bringing to this discussion is respect, inquisition and real life feedback. Not to mention I know a thing or two about sharpening so I can judge steels very well for myself. Furthermore, I am NOT bashing CRK's current and past steels, I was HOPING they would option CPM-M4 because I KNOW it outperforms S30v in a big way. Also, I get my S30v razor razor sharp. :)

I hope you understand I mean this as a friendly disagreement.

Kevin

nyefmaker said:
Everyone has an opinion, my is though experience of owning 90 CRK of ALL kinds, so I have the experience from daily use to back up my thoughts. I do not waste my time doing " cutting tests ". Who cares if a sebenza will cut 200 pieces of rope, can cut 1000 slices of paper....??? And GOD knows what these " cutting tests " consist of. Who cares that CRK steel will not get sharp enough to shave with....???....I would never shave with my sebenza anyways...!!! I USE mine daily. I have cut tons of cardboard ( which is a edge killer in ANY steel ), opened and packaged up packages for shipment, cut paper, food prep, cut tar paper and scoured shingles, whittled, field dressed deer, skinned deer......You name it. Real World Things, NOT " cutting tests ". During all of this, ANY CRK steel I have used have performed as I would expect.........I once started a thread or posted in someone else's what I thought of all the blade steels CRK has used. Look it up. For the record, S30V has always been my favorite Sebenza Steel.

I will state again. CRK helped to develop S30V & S35VN. Chris KNOWS what the best Heat Treat is for each steel. The HT he uses is what is Best for that particular steel Some steels might hold an edge longer with a higher HT, but are impossible to sharpen. Others may sharpen super easy with a lower HT, but not hold an edge at all. And TRUST ME, ONE degree of HT does not make or break a steel. Some other knives may cut better, but look at the blades. Some are super thin. They may seem sharper, but actually have a weaker edge as its thinner.

Like I said, everyone has an opinion. But they should be based on real world use, not so called " cutting tests ".
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[video=youtube;Uh3cLdx5mXU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uh3cLdx5mXU[/video]

Thats a pretty old video with one of my sebenzas in it. It was just out of my pocket not as sharp as it could have been. I have nothing against S30v so there is no need to be defensive about the steel.

A while back I actually made a thread about how it CAN be sharpened well.

Kevin
 
I think one of the reasons that S35VN was developed is being forgotten (read wiki article etc). It makes the manufacturing process easier and less expensive as it is easier to machine and grind (consumes less belts, dies, etc at the factory and less time) and is easier to polish (nicer finished product to fondle). After all of the reading I have done on the difference between S30V and S35VN, I have come to the (personal) conclusion that Chris Reeve likely tweeked the S30V formula to make production of his knives more efficient, at a lower cost to CRK, and end up with a more beautiful looking blade. I don't think S35VN was meant to be a superior cutting steel to say S30V, just one that was easier to machine. I respect CRK for this as their knives are fantastic, and I think he is a wise business man. The blade steel is the same for all knives, so the grind method, the type of stone in the stone wash, the set-up for the CNC can all be the same, making it easier to switch between making mnandis and sikayos etc. CRK has never made a big deal about their blade steels, which is why its not even stamped on the knives. I feel S35VN is fine for everything I do, and if it helps CRK run a successful shop, I'm all for it.
 
Kevin, I think you have clearly demonstrated that you aren't being CRK-critical. I am aiming for that tenor myself. And the CRK products we are all so fond of surely don't need defending that denies rational criticism, I'm sure we can all agree. Certainly Mr. Reeve has more "knife knowledge" than a thousand Officer's Matches, but that doesn't mean I don't know what I would prefer.

That said, the edge does roll on my Umnumzaan too easily IMHO unless left more obtuse that I want any EDC to be for me personally. I do wish I could up the hardness without voiding my warranty.
 
The man himself mentioned that they could use high speed tool steels and have crazy edge retention. Guys, there is really no need to be defensive about the current choices. I wasn't criticizing that. I was just HOPEFUL.

Locutus D'Borg said:
Very well said. We have free speech, but unless they are actually metallurgists, people should take care in making authoritative critiques of a legendary knife-maker.
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Tripton said:
You know, I agree with much of this, but I assure you, CRK steel will get sharp enough to shave with.
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I am sure it will, its just not something I would do ( thats what a razor is for ) , and if it did not as good as a razor, immediately dis CRK's HT.......just an example of what happens when HT is discussed....LOL.
 
I understand what you are saying. I always try to look at things without bias. Sometimes it can be difficult when you have so much invested into something. It can go both ways. Its a great group here. No need for defenses going up is my way of thinking :)

Officer's Match said:
Kevin, I think you have clearly demonstrated that you aren't being CRK-critical. I am aiming for that tenor myself. And the CRK products we are all so fond of surely don't need defending that denies rational criticism, I'm sure we can all agree. Certainly Mr. Reeve has more "knife knowledge" than a thousand Officer's Matches, but that doesn't mean I don't know what I would prefer.

That said, the edge does roll on my Umnumzaan too easily IMHO unless left more obtuse that I want any EDC to be for me personally. I do wish I could up the hardness without voiding my warranty.
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