blade thicknesses

ive noticed there are many different thicknesses of blades here and am wondering, how thick does a user blade really need to be to be strong and functional as a knife?the reason i underline knife is because i beleive there is a right tool for every job and i do not use a knife to pry open car doors,chop down trees,or dig for clams in the sand.i just dont think its what the knife was intended to do. i use my knives for general cutting,carving,field dressing,skinning and batoning. ive used a stick tang 1/8" to do all of these and never fail.my preffered thickness is 5/32" as it is plenty strong for my user needs and performs eqaully well in all the above areas.

so the question is what thickness is strong enough to do all normal WSS related tasks?my question i guess goes mainly to the makers here on WSS,as theres method to thier madness when it comes to making a strong functional cutting tool,but anyone with logic behind an answer is cool too:D

I think you answered it for yourself.:thumbup:

You have found what works for you.

This question can be discussed but there is no generic answer to it. The needs are relative to the user and there style.

I will use my bro Christof of Koyote Knives and myself for comparison. We are often times on opposite sides of the spectrum when it comes to blade thickness.... but have the same goal in mind. We tease eachother at times.... but in the end, I would have no problem using one of his "spatulas" in the bush... just as he would be happy with one of my "doorstops".

That being said.... geometry and thickness (along with heat treat) play important roles in dictating strength and toughness.

Strength - the ability to resist deformation.
Toughness - the abilty deform without breaking.

If you require a blade to be flexible (such as a machete or a fillet knife) then you can't have it 1/4" thick, obviously. Just as a knife that will be subjected to prying or heavy battoning shouldn't be too thin. In other words, you wouldn't bust open a rotten log with a machete and you wouldn't clear brush with a heavy bowie...... well I suppose you could, but it wouldn't be ideal.
 
I think we can all probably agree that "Wilderness Skills" and "Survival" can each contain some pretty different sets of scenarios. Granted, there may be a certain amount of crossover, but insofar as the terms above are concerned, for the most part I think my previous statement is correct. For me, "Wilderness Skills" equates to about the same as bushcraft and hunting type skills. These skills would include "normal" bushcrafting/hunting tasks such as cooking, food prep, field dressing game, shelter building, fire building, trap making, batoning, etc. And yes, these are absolutely defined as "normal" bushcrafting skills. These and more are explained in countless bushcrafting guides and books, and as far as the popular term "bushcrafting" goes, these are more or less the "norm." Keep in mind that "bushcrafting" generally is done with not just one tool, but several, which may or may not include choppers, axes, saws, etc. That being said, of course some of us will prefer bushcrafting without those things, and as a result probably prefer a more robust knife in order to help encompass those tasks the other tools are generally meant for. I have yet to find a bushcrafting book or expert that explains the need to tunnel through a mountain or chop down a telephone pole (or any other like-minded nonsense) with a knife as a bushcrafting skill or necessity.

"Survival" is pretty self explanatory, and is certainly not a normal situation. Such an abnormal situation would be closer to that "one knife only" scenario we all discuss so much, and in this case you would probably want your knife to be capable of more strenuous and demanding tasks - to the detriment of its detailed carving capabilities, etc. And for those of you who would like to debate the matter, don't. All other things being equal, a thicker blade with a more robust grind will always be less capable at finer tasks than a thinner blade and more delicate grind. Of course you may still be able to get by, the knife will simply be less apt to perform well at finer detail tasks.

Myself, I am a "right tool for the job" kinda guy. I am not an ultra-light-ist. I'll carry an axe, hatchet, or designated chopper for chopping tasks, a saw for sawing tasks, and a knife for knifing tasks (which, for me, include batoning up to a certain diameter).


Now here's the meat and potatoes of the matter:
Notice I put "For me," in BOLD in the first paragraph. I have said this before, and I am absolutely certain that I will end up saying it again, probably many more times: The knife YOU choose to use will have characteristics based upon the tasks YOU use it for. I am not using your knife, and you are not using mine. Bushman uses his knife for different purposes than I use my knife for. Though, even if he were to use it for the same purpose I use my woods knife for, he may PREFER a blade styled much differently. This is what is SO COOL about all of us being here and posting everything we post!! Think about it: This would be a pretty damned boring forum if we all had Bark River Auroras, or if all anyone made were Apache Throwing Stars or lean-to's!

Too often I see a post like this: "I'm just getting into bushcrafting, what knife should I get?" At first? ANY KNIFE!!! Absolutely ANY knife will do! Take out a butter knife! You'll probably quickly learn that it needs to be sharpened, but that's OKAY! Go sharpen it! And then go out AGAIN!! You'll keep learning which tasks are within the knife's limits and which aren't. You'll continue reevaluating your criteria for your woods knife for YEARS AND YEARS! All of us do! Just ask Magnussen to explain his own personal knife design progression. He changes it up all of the time based upon the skills he utilizes most and what he thinks will work better for him!

I apologize for the long post, it just seems to me that many people like to theorize (I, too, am guilty at times) too much instead of using experience as an educator. There ARE no shortcuts. You will not be able to design and build a trap simply by buying a knife of a certain name. Ever. Impossible. You WILL, however, LEARN to design and build traps if you get out and try - over, and over, and over, and over. I understand that many of us use this and other sites to help learn from others' experiences. However, we can only learn from others' experiences to a certain point. As I said previously, there ARE no shortcuts.
 
Oh, good grief. Magnussen, you have the enraging ability to mop up my tangents in about ten words.

Well-played, sir. I could beat the bush til its dead, then you could come up and whisper sweet nothings in the general direction of its battered limbs and breathe it back to life in about five seconds.

I apologize to all for the tangent... didn't quite realize how off-topic I had gotten until the damage was already done! :foot::foot::foot:
 
I apologize to all for the tangent... didn't quite realize how off-topic I had gotten until the damage was already done! :foot::foot::foot:
no reason to apologize as i think you made very valid points. If there were a perfect knife BF wouldn't exist for one and despite the swinging trends this place goes thru every few years there are still enough different people around to keep it fresh imo.

good post absolutindian:thumbup:
 
I like 1/8th the best, I would never really have any need for anything thicker. 1/8 seems a good balance between slicing and wood working, If I need thicker, I use a ax.
 
I've made a bunch of knives from 3/32" 15n20 bandsaw blades. I baton them just like any other knife. They're flexible but I haven't had any problems since I nailed the heat treat. 1/16" seems a bit too thin for batoning

My overall favorite size is 3/32". I have neckers, choppers, machetes and kitchen knives out of it, and all work well for me. I like them light and fast, and while I still like big heavy choppers my 3/32" have not failed me in the last few years and do not expect them to. WHen looking for fatwood (ha ha ha at what I have found so far) I take a bit more heft, but that is more the exception than the rule. It changed for me when I first showed my grandfather some blanks I was making out of 1/8" and he said "too thick, get some nice thin saw steel". I kept the known steel that I had but started playing with grinds and bevels and have come to love them thin (like MY women;))

Make them 1/2" for all I care though, just don't ask my crippled ass to carry it for you!!:D
 
Rick said it.

But I'll add that .095 15N20 and batoning is totally fine. Some people (tony) have done some crazy batoning with that and a few others (barberphobic) through nails.

I do make some thicker stuff, to be sure. But for an EDC, thickness between 3/32 and 1/4 is much more a matter of the weight you want to carry and the geometry and blade shape you want to carry than anything else. Above 1/4 inch, it's getting into a territory where I expect people are trying either to replace and axe with a knife (which is fine, it works), or have a need internally for the mass and phsychology of carrying 4 pounds of 3/8 inch steel to cut taters :D

I do tend to think that the further north you go, the thicker and shorter your choppers end up being. The really long thin machetes that work well in jungles are - IMO- better replaced with the stouer, 1/8 or even 3/16 inch 10-12 inch machete like choppers as you go north into temperate and hardwood forests.
 
Thickness to match intended function, length and weight. I've kind of ruled out 1/4" now though and max out at 3/16" for the kinds of things I do. I tend to agree with the majority here that 1/8" is a great all rounder, but I think 3/32" is pretty close to that also.
 
I think we can all probably agree that "Wilderness Skills" and "Survival" can each contain some pretty different sets of scenarios. Granted, there may be a certain amount of crossover, but insofar as the terms above are concerned, for the most part I think my previous statement is correct. For me, "Wilderness Skills" equates to about the same as bushcraft and hunting type skills. These skills would include "normal" bushcrafting/hunting tasks such as cooking, food prep, field dressing game, shelter building, fire building, trap making, batoning, etc. And yes, these are absolutely defined as "normal" bushcrafting skills. These and more are explained in countless bushcrafting guides and books, and as far as the popular term "bushcrafting" goes, these are more or less the "norm." Keep in mind that "bushcrafting" generally is done with not just one tool, but several, which may or may not include choppers, axes, saws, etc. That being said, of course some of us will prefer bushcrafting without those things, and as a result probably prefer a more robust knife in order to help encompass those tasks the other tools are generally meant for. I have yet to find a bushcrafting book or expert that explains the need to tunnel through a mountain or chop down a telephone pole (or any other like-minded nonsense) with a knife as a bushcrafting skill or necessity.

"Survival" is pretty self explanatory, and is certainly not a normal situation. Such an abnormal situation would be closer to that "one knife only" scenario we all discuss so much, and in this case you would probably want your knife to be capable of more strenuous and demanding tasks - to the detriment of its detailed carving capabilities, etc. And for those of you who would like to debate the matter, don't. All other things being equal, a thicker blade with a more robust grind will always be less capable at finer tasks than a thinner blade and more delicate grind. Of course you may still be able to get by, the knife will simply be less apt to perform well at finer detail tasks.

Myself, I am a "right tool for the job" kinda guy. I am not an ultra-light-ist. I'll carry an axe, hatchet, or designated chopper for chopping tasks, a saw for sawing tasks, and a knife for knifing tasks (which, for me, include batoning up to a certain diameter).


Now here's the meat and potatoes of the matter:
Notice I put "For me," in BOLD in the first paragraph. I have said this before, and I am absolutely certain that I will end up saying it again, probably many more times: The knife YOU choose to use will have characteristics based upon the tasks YOU use it for. I am not using your knife, and you are not using mine. Bushman uses his knife for different purposes than I use my knife for. Though, even if he were to use it for the same purpose I use my woods knife for, he may PREFER a blade styled much differently. This is what is SO COOL about all of us being here and posting everything we post!! Think about it: This would be a pretty damned boring forum if we all had Bark River Auroras, or if all anyone made were Apache Throwing Stars or lean-to's!

Too often I see a post like this: "I'm just getting into bushcrafting, what knife should I get?" At first? ANY KNIFE!!! Absolutely ANY knife will do! Take out a butter knife! You'll probably quickly learn that it needs to be sharpened, but that's OKAY! Go sharpen it! And then go out AGAIN!! You'll keep learning which tasks are within the knife's limits and which aren't. You'll continue reevaluating your criteria for your woods knife for YEARS AND YEARS! All of us do! Just ask Magnussen to explain his own personal knife design progression. He changes it up all of the time based upon the skills he utilizes most and what he thinks will work better for him!

I apologize for the long post, it just seems to me that many people like to theorize (I, too, am guilty at times) too much instead of using experience as an educator. There ARE no shortcuts. You will not be able to design and build a trap simply by buying a knife of a certain name. Ever. Impossible. You WILL, however, LEARN to design and build traps if you get out and try - over, and over, and over, and over. I understand that many of us use this and other sites to help learn from others' experiences. However, we can only learn from others' experiences to a certain point. As I said previously, there ARE no shortcuts.
EPIC post!;) I agree with everything save for the "I'm just getting into bushcraft" thing. Obvoiusly experience is going to tell him what's right FOR him but nothing wrong with that question. Asking questions like that has greatly expanded my knowledge base. A simple question like that can sometimes make a poster start to think more critically about knife design. Seeing what people choose and why they choose it can narrow down ones choices a great deal and for us poor boys, that's nice.
 
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Thickness to match intended function, length and weight. I've kind of ruled out 1/4" now though and max out at 3/16" for the kinds of things I do. I tend to agree with the majority here that 1/8" is a great all rounder, but I think 3/32" is pretty close to that also.

I will back you up on that one Ken. You have seen my latest (and thinnest) blade. That knife handle really nicely.

My dilema is that a thin knife like that would never survive up North with me. In -40F diggin into icy ground, prying open stumps and battoning frozen oak would be too much. I know without a doubt... that is what I need to do to survive out there. So what should I do? My camp knives can afford to be thinner.... but my "one" knife can't. That is why I designed my Bushknife years ago. A 9" OA 1/4" thick piece of sharpened steel. I try to train as close to the real thing as possible and properly heat treated 1/4" is the only thing that makes it through.

I can't argue the fact that 1/8" handles and slices better.... but in my experience, that won't get me home.


Rick
 
I will back you up on that one Ken. You have seen my latest (and thinnest) blade. That knife handle really nicely.

My dilema is that a thin knife like that would never survive up North with me. In -40F diggin into icy ground, prying open stumps and battoning frozen oak would be too much. I know without a doubt... that is what I need to do to survive out there. So what should I do? My camp knives can afford to be thinner.... but my "one" knife can't. That is why I designed my Bushknife years ago. A 9" OA 1/4" thick piece of sharpened steel. I try to train as close to the real thing as possible and properly heat treated 1/4" is the only thing that makes it through.

I can't argue the fact that 1/8" handles and slices better.... but in my experience, that won't get me home.


Rick


I hate to admit it, ...but Rick is correct.


As much as I love thinner blades, thicker blades (with the right grind) are the ones I truely trust.




Big Mike



PS - I also like Fat Bottemed Girls in a survival situation.
 
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I will back you up on that one Ken. You have seen my latest (and thinnest) blade. That knife handle really nicely.

My dilema is that a thin knife like that would never survive up North with me. In -40F diggin into icy ground, prying open stumps and battoning frozen oak would be too much. I know without a doubt... that is what I need to do to survive out there. So what should I do? My camp knives can afford to be thinner.... but my "one" knife can't. That is why I designed my Bushknife years ago. A 9" OA 1/4" thick piece of sharpened steel. I try to train as close to the real thing as possible and properly heat treated 1/4" is the only thing that makes it through.

I can't argue the fact that 1/8" handles and slices better.... but in my experience, that won't get me home.


Rick

Rick-

I think that's perfectly valid. From a design standpoint I wonder if you might not pull it off with a full convexed 3/16 blade. I've done the bushbeater in both 3/16 8670m and 1/4 inch 5160. I can't tell the difference down south here, but north of 45 I don't get much.


However, I do think that there's a lot of knives in the 3/16 through 3/8 inch thick categories that are trying to be 3/32-5/32 thick knives. That's a big reason threads like these come up, I think. I can run down to the sporting goods store here in town and get you a brand name, $75, 3/16 inch thick purpose built skinning knife, with a hollow grind! THAT has to confuse people who are new to the Game.
 
The bare minimum of what you need is often different than what you want and what you will trust unconditionally....I'll take my fix blades at .25" with a nice wide flat grind:)
 
my fallkniven F1 is pretty thick, but it cuts and batons so well. But I also have blades that are 2mm thick that have no problems with anything I put them through. Overall I like thin blades.
 
i have no immediate use for thick blades where im at at the moment...but i love all thicknesses from my SAK OHT blade up to hortons sharpened prybars...its all good. :)

i will add i agree with rick on edge geometry...and koyote on grinds.
 
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