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- Thread starter Mike Turber
- Start date
Cliff Stamp
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Mike, while I would suscribe I do see problems because of a split between those who are and those who are not. Lets say for example there is a thread on corrosion resistance and I refer to an article in the mag like "in the latest issue there is a write-up on just how easily A2 corrodes by XXX". Now someone entering the thread asks "I am not suscribed to the on-line mag - could you describe the results?"
What is the answer to this - "No, go suscribe." or "Ok, here is the information". Neither of these is a very good solution. The first basically makes Bladeforums like one of the pay sites where you get teaser information for free but all the "real info" has to be payed for. The other choice, giving the information would obviously reduce desire to get the mag as there is little practical reason to spend the money when you could just come on BladeForums and ask about anything interesting.
-Cliff
What is the answer to this - "No, go suscribe." or "Ok, here is the information". Neither of these is a very good solution. The first basically makes Bladeforums like one of the pay sites where you get teaser information for free but all the "real info" has to be payed for. The other choice, giving the information would obviously reduce desire to get the mag as there is little practical reason to spend the money when you could just come on BladeForums and ask about anything interesting.
-Cliff
- Joined
- Oct 2, 1998
- Messages
- 5,461
Maybe this is not coming out very clear.
You can quote anything in the magazine just not an entire article. The reason you can not copy and paste and entire article is for copyright laws. You can however quote darn near the whole thing in your words but not copy and paste.
BladeForums will remain unchanged. The magazine will not detract from discussions here but will merely add to them much like the current magazines do.
Have any of you stopped subscribing to the magazines (Blade, KI, TK and others) because of BladeForums?
I doubt any have but if you have you are missing out on many articles.
If we get enough advertising revenue we will make the magazine FREE.
The articles will be written regardless of who advertisies and you guys know I will tell it like it is even if an advertisiers product gets a bad review. The problem with the magazines now is you NEVER see a bad revue. I for one would like to know how certain knives stack up and holding back bad information is worse than telling only the good.
------------------
Best Regards,
Mike Turber
BladeForums Site Owner and Administrator
Do it! Do it right! Do it right NOW!
www.wowinc.com
You can quote anything in the magazine just not an entire article. The reason you can not copy and paste and entire article is for copyright laws. You can however quote darn near the whole thing in your words but not copy and paste.
BladeForums will remain unchanged. The magazine will not detract from discussions here but will merely add to them much like the current magazines do.
Have any of you stopped subscribing to the magazines (Blade, KI, TK and others) because of BladeForums?
I doubt any have but if you have you are missing out on many articles.
If we get enough advertising revenue we will make the magazine FREE.
The articles will be written regardless of who advertisies and you guys know I will tell it like it is even if an advertisiers product gets a bad review. The problem with the magazines now is you NEVER see a bad revue. I for one would like to know how certain knives stack up and holding back bad information is worse than telling only the good.
------------------
Best Regards,
Mike Turber
BladeForums Site Owner and Administrator
Do it! Do it right! Do it right NOW!
www.wowinc.com
Cliff Stamp
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- 17,562
That policy sounds good to me then Mike. Concerning bad reviews, this has been commented on before by people in the industry and there are two main reasons for it. The first is that you obviously are not going to get much money to do an ad in a magazine that does not promote the product. The second is that there are liability and associated legal concerns if you publish articles with hard opinons.
You obviously are not concerned with the first issue. But have you given any thought to the second? Do you think its not something that will happen or are you simply prepared to take the charge if you get challanged? By the way how does this work in regular mags? Is it the writer that comes under fire or the publisher or who?
-Cliff
You obviously are not concerned with the first issue. But have you given any thought to the second? Do you think its not something that will happen or are you simply prepared to take the charge if you get challanged? By the way how does this work in regular mags? Is it the writer that comes under fire or the publisher or who?
-Cliff
- Joined
- Oct 16, 1998
- Messages
- 307
Excellent sign me up.
I don't think taking adds from manufacturers will be a bad thing, they will know if they put out crap it will be brought to light very quickly for all to see and just be up front that revues will be true with no BS no fudging just because they are advertisers.
In fact this mite be a good thing no more hugo's being passed off as Rolls-Royce's(no offense intended to hugo owners).
------------------
Edward Randall Schott
Knifemaker
www.angelfire.com/ct/schottknives/index.html
edschott@javanet.com
I don't think taking adds from manufacturers will be a bad thing, they will know if they put out crap it will be brought to light very quickly for all to see and just be up front that revues will be true with no BS no fudging just because they are advertisers.
In fact this mite be a good thing no more hugo's being passed off as Rolls-Royce's(no offense intended to hugo owners).
------------------
Edward Randall Schott
Knifemaker
www.angelfire.com/ct/schottknives/index.html
edschott@javanet.com
- Joined
- Oct 2, 1998
- Messages
- 5,461
Well the fact of the matter is that if a manufacturer does not want to see a bad review then they better make a better product then huh?
Also I think most respectable manufacturers will look at it from the standpoint of constructive critism.
Case in point...
Remember the first knife test I did? I about freaked when the Benchmade model 840 failed the AT Barr whack the spine test. I posted the results and even checked one of my dealers stock to make sure I did not get a defective one. Nope they all did it. He had 9 in stock and all failed. Many of you tested yours and sure enough most failed. When Benchmade was made aware of it they did the right thing and checked their stock and sure enough there was a problem.
Did they come in here and say our test was flawed? Nope here is the thread on Benchmade's site where Les De Asis (Benchamde's President) came in and addressed the problem.
http://www.benchmade.com/ultbb/Forum1/HTML/000921.html
Now that was a class act and Les did a great job at damage control.
I could point to several examples of how not to handle damage control when a knife fails a simple test.
The fact is my tests will be fair, simple, easily duplicated and non biased. Those who know me well know I have a history of telling it like it is and speaking my mind. So don't look for any sugar coating if a knife fails a test. It will be reported in a professional and factual manner, good or bad.
Cliff,
I would also like to report on some of your test in the magazine if you are OK with that? I will of course supply certain knives to you so people will get testing of the same knife from a different perspective.
------------------
Best Regards,
Mike Turber
BladeForums Site Owner and Administrator
Do it! Do it right! Do it right NOW!
www.wowinc.com
Also I think most respectable manufacturers will look at it from the standpoint of constructive critism.
Case in point...
Remember the first knife test I did? I about freaked when the Benchmade model 840 failed the AT Barr whack the spine test. I posted the results and even checked one of my dealers stock to make sure I did not get a defective one. Nope they all did it. He had 9 in stock and all failed. Many of you tested yours and sure enough most failed. When Benchmade was made aware of it they did the right thing and checked their stock and sure enough there was a problem.
Did they come in here and say our test was flawed? Nope here is the thread on Benchmade's site where Les De Asis (Benchamde's President) came in and addressed the problem.
http://www.benchmade.com/ultbb/Forum1/HTML/000921.html
Now that was a class act and Les did a great job at damage control.
I could point to several examples of how not to handle damage control when a knife fails a simple test.
The fact is my tests will be fair, simple, easily duplicated and non biased. Those who know me well know I have a history of telling it like it is and speaking my mind. So don't look for any sugar coating if a knife fails a test. It will be reported in a professional and factual manner, good or bad.
Cliff,
I would also like to report on some of your test in the magazine if you are OK with that? I will of course supply certain knives to you so people will get testing of the same knife from a different perspective.
------------------
Best Regards,
Mike Turber
BladeForums Site Owner and Administrator
Do it! Do it right! Do it right NOW!
www.wowinc.com
- Joined
- Oct 7, 1998
- Messages
- 383
Mike:
Great idea! I'm in. How about a "Test" column/series of articles. Seems that there is a lot of hoopla about edge retention without a standard testing scenario or methodology that would reult in repeatable results. Or is 1" manila rope destined to be the state-of-the-art for the foreseeable future? In any case, I love the concept. I'm not concerned about draining the vitality of the forum; I would expect just the opposite as BF KNuts wrestle verbally with the authors and their opinions. I'M looking forward to the fun!
Christopher
Great idea! I'm in. How about a "Test" column/series of articles. Seems that there is a lot of hoopla about edge retention without a standard testing scenario or methodology that would reult in repeatable results. Or is 1" manila rope destined to be the state-of-the-art for the foreseeable future? In any case, I love the concept. I'm not concerned about draining the vitality of the forum; I would expect just the opposite as BF KNuts wrestle verbally with the authors and their opinions. I'M looking forward to the fun!
Christopher
I'd vote no.
First, as a paid subscription that has any advertising, it loses objectivity.
Second, I don't read the trade rags now because they don't offer as timely or valuable information as is available in free forums.
Third, you begin to spread the interest and time resources of the audience to ever thinner points making it harder to find information in the time you have.
Fourth, monthly, or even bi-weekly publication simply won't hold your readers interest on the web. The web's success is fast new information. Monthly publishing is not sufficient for the business timescales on the internet.
Fifth, Usenet. Predictions, for what they're worth, are targeting Usenet as the next revolution in the Internet as the user's savvy rises to the level of threaded textual interaction. BladeForums already leads that curve with a web enabled front end. Not that rec.knives is precisely what I want but the FAQs there beat the magazines for quality information on a monthly basis.
Sixth, it's me too-ism that when lacking innovation that extends the paradigm always fails. I fail to see anything that extends knife knowledge or use in the description of the magazine. It's preaching to the choir with useless lead time for the audience about new products. So you know a new knife or steel is coming out. You won't get it any faster for reading about it one month earlier in a magazine than when the knowledge breaks in a forum, newsgroup, or email.
It's essentially paying for advertising and opinions available for free through more efficient means.
My vote? Put those magazine topic sections into BladeForums as separate forums and build a forum with thumbnail photos so people only have to spend the time loading photos they really want to see.
First, as a paid subscription that has any advertising, it loses objectivity.
Second, I don't read the trade rags now because they don't offer as timely or valuable information as is available in free forums.
Third, you begin to spread the interest and time resources of the audience to ever thinner points making it harder to find information in the time you have.
Fourth, monthly, or even bi-weekly publication simply won't hold your readers interest on the web. The web's success is fast new information. Monthly publishing is not sufficient for the business timescales on the internet.
Fifth, Usenet. Predictions, for what they're worth, are targeting Usenet as the next revolution in the Internet as the user's savvy rises to the level of threaded textual interaction. BladeForums already leads that curve with a web enabled front end. Not that rec.knives is precisely what I want but the FAQs there beat the magazines for quality information on a monthly basis.
Sixth, it's me too-ism that when lacking innovation that extends the paradigm always fails. I fail to see anything that extends knife knowledge or use in the description of the magazine. It's preaching to the choir with useless lead time for the audience about new products. So you know a new knife or steel is coming out. You won't get it any faster for reading about it one month earlier in a magazine than when the knowledge breaks in a forum, newsgroup, or email.
It's essentially paying for advertising and opinions available for free through more efficient means.
My vote? Put those magazine topic sections into BladeForums as separate forums and build a forum with thumbnail photos so people only have to spend the time loading photos they really want to see.
- Joined
- Oct 2, 1998
- Messages
- 5,461
Phatch,
The magazine will be where many new items are shown first. The way it is now the magazines get the knowledge out months after we already know about it. I would be willing to bet that people would read the on-line magazine just to see the tests alone. Remember the On-line magazine will be in a completely different format complete with pics, video and audio!
Stay tuned!
------------------
Best Regards,
Mike Turber
BladeForums Site Owner and Administrator
Do it! Do it right! Do it right NOW!
www.wowinc.com
Nope, Not here sense I don't play that game and people who know me know that.
The FREE info will still be available. The magazie version will just be a much better way of laying it out and in a more professional manner.
Maybe but if that is true then the magazines would be doing the same thing right?
We will focus on new stuff which is very time specific. Plus my unique position in this industry will give me insight which is not available in the rags.
BladeForums will still have it's edge on how we do things. The magazine will simply be a premium to this site. Look at the first month's FREE issue then let me know what you think then.
The magazine will be where many new items are shown first. The way it is now the magazines get the knowledge out months after we already know about it. I would be willing to bet that people would read the on-line magazine just to see the tests alone. Remember the On-line magazine will be in a completely different format complete with pics, video and audio!
Stay tuned!
------------------
Best Regards,
Mike Turber
BladeForums Site Owner and Administrator
Do it! Do it right! Do it right NOW!
www.wowinc.com
Great idea!!!! The knife mags out there now
cater to the good ol boys and nobody wants to step on tradition. It's old money. They got it the old fashion way they stole it.
The only problem I see is getting in too deep with advert. not to the point of them telling you what to say but rather that you start to depend on their $$$$$. I'll subscribe and still stay on the forum. The how to articles always seem to be popular.
Goshawk http://www.imt.net/~goshawk
cater to the good ol boys and nobody wants to step on tradition. It's old money. They got it the old fashion way they stole it.
The only problem I see is getting in too deep with advert. not to the point of them telling you what to say but rather that you start to depend on their $$$$$. I'll subscribe and still stay on the forum. The how to articles always seem to be popular.
Goshawk http://www.imt.net/~goshawk
- Joined
- Oct 2, 1998
- Messages
- 15,230
The nice thing about the advertising is that we aren't charging so much, or running so much overhead that any one particular advertiser could have that kind of pull.
It's not like a knife magazine where it's $1000 a month for an ad that's going to be circulated in another collection of them. Sure, if we had a staff of 30 or so that we were paying ton's for, and were paying tons for printing, etc etc etc, it would be a different story. Here, our overhead is our bandwidth, and the software, and though it has been expensive so far, it can easily change for the better quickly.
It's all a matter of what you are going to put into it, right? Let's save the nay saying until after we have something actually working first.
Spark
------------------
Kevin Jon Schlossberg
SysOp and Administrator for BladeForums.com
Insert witty quip here
It's not like a knife magazine where it's $1000 a month for an ad that's going to be circulated in another collection of them. Sure, if we had a staff of 30 or so that we were paying ton's for, and were paying tons for printing, etc etc etc, it would be a different story. Here, our overhead is our bandwidth, and the software, and though it has been expensive so far, it can easily change for the better quickly.
It's all a matter of what you are going to put into it, right? Let's save the nay saying until after we have something actually working first.
Spark
------------------
Kevin Jon Schlossberg
SysOp and Administrator for BladeForums.com
Insert witty quip here
Cliff Stamp
BANNED
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- Messages
- 17,562
Mike, regarding that test in particular, was there ever any result to Benchmades evalutation of your test and those repeated by others?
I could probably think of a few myself.
That's cool with me.
The more I think about this idea, of a straight shooting magazine, the more I really start to like it. I have recieved email after email of people reporting problems with named knives but who are unwilling to go forth with these results because of the flak they will get. And its not only from the maker/seller its from the "fans" as well who are often just as or even more hostile. This censorship is a tremendous disservice to the knife community as a whole and people really need to learn how to take critism for what it is.
You are taking big steps Mike, and I hope others will follow but I don't think you will be crowded for awhile to come. If you are open to non fluff reviews, as I would expect you would be, then maybe the best thing to come out of this is that you could convince some people who are unwilling to come forth to do so. You could even have a look at any problems reported and comment on them yourself thus taking some of the heat off of the wary.
Have you though about sending out a paper copy to those without net access? You could get into all kinds of overhead really fast here with publishing costs. But if you went with content over presentation, you should be able to keep it down to a reasonable level.
-Cliff
[This message has been edited by Cliff Stamp (edited 24 June 1999).]
I could probably think of a few myself.
That's cool with me.
The more I think about this idea, of a straight shooting magazine, the more I really start to like it. I have recieved email after email of people reporting problems with named knives but who are unwilling to go forth with these results because of the flak they will get. And its not only from the maker/seller its from the "fans" as well who are often just as or even more hostile. This censorship is a tremendous disservice to the knife community as a whole and people really need to learn how to take critism for what it is.
You are taking big steps Mike, and I hope others will follow but I don't think you will be crowded for awhile to come. If you are open to non fluff reviews, as I would expect you would be, then maybe the best thing to come out of this is that you could convince some people who are unwilling to come forth to do so. You could even have a look at any problems reported and comment on them yourself thus taking some of the heat off of the wary.
Have you though about sending out a paper copy to those without net access? You could get into all kinds of overhead really fast here with publishing costs. But if you went with content over presentation, you should be able to keep it down to a reasonable level.
-Cliff
[This message has been edited by Cliff Stamp (edited 24 June 1999).]
I haven't taken the time to figure out the quote function for the forum, but I will continue my discussion of my points.
one: objectivity vs advertising. The proven standard for objectivity in published testing is no advertising. Consumer Reports, while having it's own problems and agenda, is still a respected magazine of testing that succeeds in part because of the refusal to accept advertising. I am sure that as an individual, you, Mr. Turber, are a no bull kind of guy. My assertion is not a personal assertion. But it remains true that when analyzing any piece of data, you must analyze the source. For example, I really enjoy National Geographic. But if you look at the primary advertisers for that magazine, you see a lot of oil and automobile ads. And when you look at what National Geographic doesn't publish, it's stories about oil and automobile companies impacts. So I have to temper what I see in National Geographic against its business interest. The news magazines are also heavily advertised in by perfume, alcohol, cigarettes, and cars and you pretty much know by that that their stories are going to be slanted to appeal to the beliefs of that demographic.
Similarly, a knife magazine including ads and being operated with the intention of making money will have an editorial slant that affects the objectivity of the content. Simply having a fixed editorial board and staff writers causes this. The voice of the magazine is required to be limited and non-egalitarain by the very nature of it being a magazine. In the days of a paper press, it was the best and potentially fairest method available. We are not it in that era, and what you are proposing is merely porting that paradigm to a medium with different potential and requirements.
two: free timely info. A montly publishing schedule, with multiple writers, coordination of articles and such simply can not be as timely as a continuosuly updated site. And as free sites remain free and will continue to be free and more timely, a web magazine can't compete. The advantage of a hard copy is portability and non volatilitey which a web zine won't have.
third: market dilution. Mike's rebuttal is that the dilution is happening already, maybe. And if you read the forums, you'll see that more and more people are abandoning the paper magazines. (only anecdotal evidence, granted). It's true in all parts of magazine publishing that subscriptions are sliding downhill. When bladeforums was created, the dilution arguments were made and analyzed in pretty good detail. And everyone developed their preferred forum with some amount of people looking at both. But even among those who look at both, they don't devote equal time to both. Their available time has to be split among the available sources. More dilution won't help a for profit enterprise.
four: monthly publishing incompatible with Web timescales. I didn't fully understand Mr. Turber's answer. I'll restate that information that had the creation leadtimes required and then not updated for a month after publishing, doesn't make for timely and recurring hits on a website, which is required to attract advertisers, regardless of rates.
five: Usenet and threaded discussion. Mr. Turber seems to agree that this is the proper realm of BladeForums. Whether it is superior and the true nature of Web publishing is something neither one of us argued. My belief is that it is superior to a static single viewpointed magazine as a way for learning and furthering knives.
six: lack of innovation. I stated that I saw no innovation in what Mr. Turber proposed. He responded that he would be the hear it here first voice of all new products and tests. Probably true, but probably insignificant. The earlier knowledge of up and coming products is simply advertising and hype. Not the role of an unbiased and analytical knife magazine. It also has no measurable benefit for the consumer, as far as early announcements go.
The testing issue is problematic. Developing good repeatable and measurable tests for knives is a DIFFICULT and LARGE project. I believe that the best standards and tests will come from the discussion of knife users and a cooperation between knife makers. Consider the liner-lock tests of AT Barr and J Talmadge (hope I spelled that right). They have become defacto standards for measuring the quality of aspects of knives and it came from free and independent sources. Reviews as performed by single users are interesting anecdotal data points, but until they become standardized and industry wide and agreed upon, it's hard to state objective value of a given test. The review forum is THE place for this to happen. Not in a privately owned and operated magazine. Open and Public. That's what quality product testing is.
If a new web magazine is created, I hope that it succeeds. Success is usually a good thing for a market, especially one with the popular perceptions against knives. However, I can't see myself subscribing at this point, and I think that those who do subscribe will evaporate fairly quickly.
After re-reading my post, I want to expand on my conclusion. I think that the knife market isn't right for the "objective" web magazine or any magazine. The required testing standards dont' exist for objectivity to exist or for analyzing new designs, locks, materials, or methods. Attempting to create the magazine now would embroil it in heated arguments and inflammatory situations that would probably destroy it.
Mike, I think the first step for your stated publishing goals is the establishment of repeatable objective tests, measurements and standards. Those would be the required innovation that would drive your magazine, attract readers and advertisers. If you had that, I might subscribe!
Phil
one: objectivity vs advertising. The proven standard for objectivity in published testing is no advertising. Consumer Reports, while having it's own problems and agenda, is still a respected magazine of testing that succeeds in part because of the refusal to accept advertising. I am sure that as an individual, you, Mr. Turber, are a no bull kind of guy. My assertion is not a personal assertion. But it remains true that when analyzing any piece of data, you must analyze the source. For example, I really enjoy National Geographic. But if you look at the primary advertisers for that magazine, you see a lot of oil and automobile ads. And when you look at what National Geographic doesn't publish, it's stories about oil and automobile companies impacts. So I have to temper what I see in National Geographic against its business interest. The news magazines are also heavily advertised in by perfume, alcohol, cigarettes, and cars and you pretty much know by that that their stories are going to be slanted to appeal to the beliefs of that demographic.
Similarly, a knife magazine including ads and being operated with the intention of making money will have an editorial slant that affects the objectivity of the content. Simply having a fixed editorial board and staff writers causes this. The voice of the magazine is required to be limited and non-egalitarain by the very nature of it being a magazine. In the days of a paper press, it was the best and potentially fairest method available. We are not it in that era, and what you are proposing is merely porting that paradigm to a medium with different potential and requirements.
two: free timely info. A montly publishing schedule, with multiple writers, coordination of articles and such simply can not be as timely as a continuosuly updated site. And as free sites remain free and will continue to be free and more timely, a web magazine can't compete. The advantage of a hard copy is portability and non volatilitey which a web zine won't have.
third: market dilution. Mike's rebuttal is that the dilution is happening already, maybe. And if you read the forums, you'll see that more and more people are abandoning the paper magazines. (only anecdotal evidence, granted). It's true in all parts of magazine publishing that subscriptions are sliding downhill. When bladeforums was created, the dilution arguments were made and analyzed in pretty good detail. And everyone developed their preferred forum with some amount of people looking at both. But even among those who look at both, they don't devote equal time to both. Their available time has to be split among the available sources. More dilution won't help a for profit enterprise.
four: monthly publishing incompatible with Web timescales. I didn't fully understand Mr. Turber's answer. I'll restate that information that had the creation leadtimes required and then not updated for a month after publishing, doesn't make for timely and recurring hits on a website, which is required to attract advertisers, regardless of rates.
five: Usenet and threaded discussion. Mr. Turber seems to agree that this is the proper realm of BladeForums. Whether it is superior and the true nature of Web publishing is something neither one of us argued. My belief is that it is superior to a static single viewpointed magazine as a way for learning and furthering knives.
six: lack of innovation. I stated that I saw no innovation in what Mr. Turber proposed. He responded that he would be the hear it here first voice of all new products and tests. Probably true, but probably insignificant. The earlier knowledge of up and coming products is simply advertising and hype. Not the role of an unbiased and analytical knife magazine. It also has no measurable benefit for the consumer, as far as early announcements go.
The testing issue is problematic. Developing good repeatable and measurable tests for knives is a DIFFICULT and LARGE project. I believe that the best standards and tests will come from the discussion of knife users and a cooperation between knife makers. Consider the liner-lock tests of AT Barr and J Talmadge (hope I spelled that right). They have become defacto standards for measuring the quality of aspects of knives and it came from free and independent sources. Reviews as performed by single users are interesting anecdotal data points, but until they become standardized and industry wide and agreed upon, it's hard to state objective value of a given test. The review forum is THE place for this to happen. Not in a privately owned and operated magazine. Open and Public. That's what quality product testing is.
If a new web magazine is created, I hope that it succeeds. Success is usually a good thing for a market, especially one with the popular perceptions against knives. However, I can't see myself subscribing at this point, and I think that those who do subscribe will evaporate fairly quickly.
After re-reading my post, I want to expand on my conclusion. I think that the knife market isn't right for the "objective" web magazine or any magazine. The required testing standards dont' exist for objectivity to exist or for analyzing new designs, locks, materials, or methods. Attempting to create the magazine now would embroil it in heated arguments and inflammatory situations that would probably destroy it.
Mike, I think the first step for your stated publishing goals is the establishment of repeatable objective tests, measurements and standards. Those would be the required innovation that would drive your magazine, attract readers and advertisers. If you had that, I might subscribe!
Phil
Cliff Stamp
BANNED
- Joined
- Oct 5, 1998
- Messages
- 17,562
phatch :
Point one. As to objectivity, yes, if Mike wanted to make a lot of money in the current market he would have to slant the information presented. However this does not mean that he is going to do so. Why not give him the benefit of the doubt when he says that he is going to try to be objective and encourage it until you see him doing otherwise.
Point two, of course a monthly issue, or weekly or whatever is not as timely as one that provides information on an hourly basis. However the fac that the quality of the information may be greatly differnet may play a part. Usenet is a direct example of this. There are posts flooding in by the minute but most of it is garbage, off topic rants, trolling and flaming. Mike could attract named knife makers to write on a regular basis that would not want to participate on a dynamic forum like this or on usenet. A mag seems more perm., and that is a strong attraction to some.
Point three, I agree here, the more forms of information the less hits will go to each. This is going to happen. If the magazine starts running strongly there will be people who will read that to get the concentrated information available rather than searching through it on the forums.
Point four, the possibility exists that previous issues might be up. After awhile this will provide a very impressive library which will attract hits on a continuous basis.
Point five, superior in some ways but not in others. It is hard to present information in certain ways on usenet in its current form.
Point six, it is innovative to be direct and unbiased since no one else is.
As for the testing it is neither problematic or difficult. It is as simple as this. Do whatever you want with the following two rules :
1) report the results in a manner so that they can be evaluated. This basically means include something your results can be compared against so that your findings have meaning.
2) describe the test with enough detail so that it can be repeated.
That is all that is necessary.
-Cliff
Point one. As to objectivity, yes, if Mike wanted to make a lot of money in the current market he would have to slant the information presented. However this does not mean that he is going to do so. Why not give him the benefit of the doubt when he says that he is going to try to be objective and encourage it until you see him doing otherwise.
Point two, of course a monthly issue, or weekly or whatever is not as timely as one that provides information on an hourly basis. However the fac that the quality of the information may be greatly differnet may play a part. Usenet is a direct example of this. There are posts flooding in by the minute but most of it is garbage, off topic rants, trolling and flaming. Mike could attract named knife makers to write on a regular basis that would not want to participate on a dynamic forum like this or on usenet. A mag seems more perm., and that is a strong attraction to some.
Point three, I agree here, the more forms of information the less hits will go to each. This is going to happen. If the magazine starts running strongly there will be people who will read that to get the concentrated information available rather than searching through it on the forums.
Point four, the possibility exists that previous issues might be up. After awhile this will provide a very impressive library which will attract hits on a continuous basis.
Point five, superior in some ways but not in others. It is hard to present information in certain ways on usenet in its current form.
Point six, it is innovative to be direct and unbiased since no one else is.
As for the testing it is neither problematic or difficult. It is as simple as this. Do whatever you want with the following two rules :
1) report the results in a manner so that they can be evaluated. This basically means include something your results can be compared against so that your findings have meaning.
2) describe the test with enough detail so that it can be repeated.
That is all that is necessary.
-Cliff
Jugding by what I`ve seen here at Bladeforums, I wouldn`t think that anyone sponsoring the `zine would want to effect the objectivity of any product review. I`ve never seen a "my-product-will-NOT-be criticized" attitude from any of the manufacturers here. Quite the opposite is true. I`ve always found the manufacturers to be keenly interested in criticism of their products and are usually quick to explain and/or make good on any defect. Check out the Spyderco forum. Check out Ken Onion`s recent response to a faulty Kershaw/Onion design. Believe me, if a manufacturer takes a "my way or the highway" attitude with the folks that buy his product, he`ll find his customers running for the hills like a pack of Mad Dogs. (Subtle enough?)
I`d also like to second Striders idea for a feature dedicated traditional patterns and manufacturer history. I`d love to see a monthly Case collectors column, or something along those lines.
I`d also like to second Striders idea for a feature dedicated traditional patterns and manufacturer history. I`d love to see a monthly Case collectors column, or something along those lines.
- Joined
- Oct 2, 1998
- Messages
- 5,461
I roughly figured out how much the on-line magazine would cost to run and it looks like about $2,000 a month. So 1,000 subscribers would just about be enough to get it started at $3.00 a head or advertising. If after 3 months we did not make this mark we would be force to shut it down.
The advertising issue has been beat to death. I am very serious about fair reporting regardless of who advertises. Not sure what more to say.
One thing is I really need to know how many would be willing to pay about $36 a year for a subscription. This info would be a big help as I would need it to proceed.
Again if I got enough advertising I would make it FREE but I doubt that in the beginning as most advertisers would want a track record.
So look for another thread asking how many would subscribe to the magazine.
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Best Regards,
Mike Turber
BladeForums Site Owner and Administrator
Do it! Do it right! Do it right NOW!
www.wowinc.com
The advertising issue has been beat to death. I am very serious about fair reporting regardless of who advertises. Not sure what more to say.
One thing is I really need to know how many would be willing to pay about $36 a year for a subscription. This info would be a big help as I would need it to proceed.
Again if I got enough advertising I would make it FREE but I doubt that in the beginning as most advertisers would want a track record.
So look for another thread asking how many would subscribe to the magazine.
------------------
Best Regards,
Mike Turber
BladeForums Site Owner and Administrator
Do it! Do it right! Do it right NOW!
www.wowinc.com
36$ bucks is that it?...I'll take two! Sounds like a great idea!...Looking forward to more knife know-how. Hopefully, enough members will subscribe and you can keep the mag. honest rather than being a giant advertising platform for dealers and makers. How about a new maker review section, this way you'll give the little guy a chance to get their name out and about!
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- Joined
- Nov 1, 1998
- Messages
- 61
I've heard some really good arguments against the magazine based on the timeliness of the information, the dilution of data due to multiple sources, and the difficulty of protecting the data from it's being posted in other areas. And yes, no matter what you do, some people will want to 'cheap-shot' and get the data second-hand or in dribbles (on rec.knives, for example). None of this matters at all to me, and I'll concentrate on what I consider the most important -by far - feature mentioned: the TESTS!
Yes, there's a possibility that the tests may be biased. Yes, there's a GOOD chance that the tests will not be as extensive as many would want them to be (Why, oh why didn't you test the Apex Knob-Knocker BloodSpiller? It's obviously MUCH better than the Frigid Iron PathMaster! Obviously you're prejudiced in this test!)
If the tests are biased - WE'RE GONNA KNOW PRETTY QUICK from rec.knives and other sources. Knife people are NOT shy about their comments if they don't like something! I, personally, don't feel that the tests will be biased, and I'm willing to kick in a few bucks just to finance the tests!
Go for it, Mike. There's going to be problems (if someone subscribes after 6 months, do they get access to previous issues? What happens when you see a complete issue posted to rec.knives or knifeforums?). But you've got my vote, and my bucks when you ask for it (but $3.00 a month? When most of your subscriptions will be by credit card? How about a yearly, or at least 6-monthly, payment?)
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Yes, there's a possibility that the tests may be biased. Yes, there's a GOOD chance that the tests will not be as extensive as many would want them to be (Why, oh why didn't you test the Apex Knob-Knocker BloodSpiller? It's obviously MUCH better than the Frigid Iron PathMaster! Obviously you're prejudiced in this test!)
If the tests are biased - WE'RE GONNA KNOW PRETTY QUICK from rec.knives and other sources. Knife people are NOT shy about their comments if they don't like something! I, personally, don't feel that the tests will be biased, and I'm willing to kick in a few bucks just to finance the tests!
Go for it, Mike. There's going to be problems (if someone subscribes after 6 months, do they get access to previous issues? What happens when you see a complete issue posted to rec.knives or knifeforums?). But you've got my vote, and my bucks when you ask for it (but $3.00 a month? When most of your subscriptions will be by credit card? How about a yearly, or at least 6-monthly, payment?)
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- Joined
- Oct 2, 1998
- Messages
- 5,461
You would not be able to post the magazine to rec.knives.
You would have full access to all previous issues.
No trees would be killed
KnifeForums would not post any of the articles from the standpoint that Ty and I have an agreement. Likewise we would not do any scoops on their exclusives.
Professional courtesy.
------------------
Best Regards,
Mike Turber
BladeForums Site Owner and Administrator
Do it! Do it right! Do it right NOW!
www.wowinc.com
You would have full access to all previous issues.
No trees would be killed
KnifeForums would not post any of the articles from the standpoint that Ty and I have an agreement. Likewise we would not do any scoops on their exclusives.
Professional courtesy.
------------------
Best Regards,
Mike Turber
BladeForums Site Owner and Administrator
Do it! Do it right! Do it right NOW!
www.wowinc.com