Bladeforums Supporting Clone Dealer

[WValtakis]

How many knockoffs are you ok with? How about con artists lying about their background to build a following? If a site steals images or text from another dealer, should we also ban them?

Honestly, I don't even know why we're quibbling over the details...I expected you to exercise your discretion as site owner and boot them when it was brought to your attention. I didn't think in a million years that WE would have to convince you of all people that their business is not in keeping with the spirit of the Bladeforums community

 

[Spark]

Dont post much but I think accusing the S&F guy of a lack of integrity is out of line. And as far as where to draw the other line is when a dealer exists ONLY to sell clones.
just my opinion. James

Too bad. Nobody said boo when multiple people questioned my integrity and made comments about 30 pieces of silver / gold.

I have stated in my previous posts and will again ... we aren't talking about a dealer here that may have a few questionable items on a huge site. We are talking about a dealer here who's entire site is questionable along with there sales and customer service practices.

So you are ok with some clones, just not all clones. Got it.

This is going in circles and no matter how many times it is laid out your response is the same. No one can make you look at it from another view if you don't care to.

I've looked at it from multiple points of view. My point of view is reasonable: I can only control what happens here. People having meltdowns about what happens on a website I don't control isn't reasonable or rational.

Honestly, I don't even know why we're quibbling over the details...I expected you to exercise your discretion as site owner and boot them when it was brought to your attention. I didn't think in a million years that WE would have to convince you of all people that their business is not in keeping with the spirit of the Bladeforums community

Oh ok, cool. My discretion is exercised in that I boot people for how they conduct themselves on this site, just like I don't boot people for their actions on eBay. I have a zero tolerance policy for clones being sold here and expect members to abide by the rules set forth.

You guys are expecting me to expand that definition to sites that advertise clones OFF the forums. I'm, reasonably, asking where we draw the line. That's not "quibbling"

 

[Fixall]

...They're allowed to advertise within our stated rules which specify no counterfeits, fakes or knockoffs are allowed on BladeForums.com. If they fail to abide by that, it's an instant ban...

I posted two links (and also reported both posts) showing Topomart doing exactly this. Advertising (with pictures) knockoffs of CRK, Benchmades, and Lionsteel knives.

These are the links. Boru has edited them to remove the offending clones, but it's easy enough for you to look at the post/edit history.

CRK clones

Lionsteel and Benchmade clones

I'm not sure if they were warned for this, but they certainly weren't reprimanded.

*Edit
Here's a screenshot.

 

[Spark]

Both of those had action taken on them, and if you notice nothing has happened since. You might say that the ice is incredibly thin. I made my position clear weeks ago on this.

 

[Fullflat]

It saddens me that remedial action hasn’t been taken to boot this ‘dealer’, considering the groundswell of respectable individuals, long time members, some very active contributors of relevant content, and even another much more well reputed dealer all having voiced a discomfort with this clone peddler being allowed to rank amongst us (regardless of where he does his peddling). Spark this is not meant as a personal attack on you, but if this is truly a community & discussion oriented forum, the community’s collective opinion should hold some weight when considering how to resolve such issues. Arguing semantics on an individual by individual basis, comment by comment, doesn’t seem productive. I personally feel less pride in being a BFer, knowing our opinion as simple ‘members’ doesn’t seem worth accommodating for fear of this ‘slippery slope’. Again, I mean no offense by shoving my $0.02 in the mix, but it’s not a good look to have some of the most passionate members expressing their concerns only to be given the brush off. If what I’ve said is unacceptable, feel free to ban me.

 

[Spark]

Y'all keep using "semantics" as a means to dismiss my concerns with where the line is drawn. That tells me you haven't given this much thought or weighed the consequences of what you want. Which is fine, you don't have to. I don't have that luxury.

 

[Sergeua]

What damage, exactly? There's multiple threads calling these guys out. They aren't advertising clones here. Anyone who is blaming BFC for these guys choices isn't being wise.

What damage?

Think I'm allowed to post links to supporting vendors.
Anybody tried this knife here?
https://www.topomart.com/product/ganzo-fb727s/
Looks like the rat I always wanted. How grippy is the g10? anybody know?

 

[Spark]

Word to the wise: don't play "test Spark's patience" games with me right now

 

[Fullflat]

Y'all keep using "semantics" as a means to dismiss my concerns with where the line is drawn. That tells me you haven't given this much thought or weighed the consequences of what you want. Which is fine, you don't have to. I don't have that luxury.

You can remove ‘semantics’ completely from that sentence in my preceding post, and it still holds true. Arguing with each of us, on a comment by comment basis, regardless of the reasoning, is surely not alleviating anyone discomfort with the situation at hand, or garnering any confidence in the responsiveness of admin to genuine concerns. If you know for sure that your course of action is the right one, just make your call and brush your shoulders off, but there’s nothing to gain at all by talking in an adversarial manner to paying members voicing their free speech

 

[WValtakis]

It probably could have been phrased better but I think its a legitimate question. If a member who's been directed to the supporting dealers list then goes to @topomart 's site and looks at a knife they then can't come back here to discuss it?

 

[Spark]

You can remove ‘semantics’ completely from that sentence in my preceding post, and it still holds true. Arguing with each of us, on a comment by comment basis, regardless of the reasoning, is surely not alleviating anyone discomfort with the situation at hand, or garnering any confidence in the responsiveness of admin to genuine concerns. If you know for sure that your course of action is the right one, just make your call and brush your shoulders off, but there’s nothing to gain at all by talking in an adversarial manner to paying members voicing their free speech

You don't have free speech here, let me relieve you of that misconception. Likewise, whether or not you like me responding to individual points brought up doesn't matter as I'm not just responding to you, but everyone else who is silent. Tone policing, similarly, doesn't matter to me.

Oh, I'm adversarial? Excuse me for being a bit less than cheerful when I respond to 15+ pages of people attacking me, personally, questioning my integrity, and posting in their sig lines efforts to sabotage the site. Especially when a couple of them previously put themselves on my radar for similar actions. Like I said earlier, I welcome constructive criticism but a paid membership is not license to show your ass.

I've made my call. I've stated what my position is. Some of you aren't happy with it. Some of you are demanding action without considering consequences because you lack the perspective needed. I've asked some of you where the line is drawn and it gets dismissed as semantics. That tells me you aren't serious about this.

 

[Fixall]

It probably could have been phrased better but I think its a legitimate question. If a member who's been directed to the supporting dealers list then goes to @topomart 's site and looks at a knife they then can't come back here to discuss it?

For what it's worth, I purchased a Factor Equipment Iconic (which is basically a GiantMouse knockoff) before I knew the story behind it and was able to have a fairly lengthy conversation with several forum members without any repercussions.

Both of those had action taken on them, and if you notice nothing has happened since. You might say that the ice is incredibly thin. I made my position clear weeks ago on this.

Personally, that's good enough for me (for whatever that counts for, lol). I know you don't owe us any kind of explanation, but I appreciate the communication. I don't like having them here, but assuming the standards you spoke of are enforced, I can get on board. I'm fairly confident they'll dig their own grave soon enough by posting something that is not allowed.

 

[Fullflat]

You don't have free speech here, let me relieve you of that misconception. Likewise, whether or not you like me responding to individual points brought up doesn't matter as I'm not just responding to you, but everyone else who is silent. Tone policing, similarly, doesn't matter to me.

Oh, I'm adversarial? Excuse me for being a bit less than cheerful when I respond to 15+ pages of people attacking me, personally, questioning my integrity, and posting in their sig lines efforts to sabotage the site. Especially when a couple of them previously put themselves on my radar for similar actions. Like I said earlier, I welcome constructive criticism but a paid membership is not license to show your ass.

I've made my call. I've stated what my position is. Some of you aren't happy with it. Some of you are demanding action without considering consequences because you lack the perspective needed. I've asked some of you where the line is drawn and it gets dismissed as semantics. That tells me you aren't serious about this.

Feeling attacked is no reason to carry that adversarial vibe forward to every other individual you address going forward. Defensive posturing doesn’t typically follow a clear conscience. “Show your ass”!? What about any of my previous posts was out of pocket, insulting or inflammatory? You want to know where the line is; that’s at your discretion boss man, since you’ve made it clear us plebes have no say here, but for me personally, if members have presented you with concrete evidence of another member engaging in IP theft (or any criminal or blatantly unethical activity) ANYWHERE, that individual should be removed from membership. Similarly, if someone is a known con artist or thief IRL, but is a new member or dealer on the forums, I’d want them banned immediately, as soon as irrefutable evidence was presented to me, so that I could protect my contingency of members from exposure to unnecessary risk while also helping preserve the good name/reputation of the forums. But hey, now I know my word means shit here, so that’s really encouraging. Thank you for enlightening us as to how you regard our opinions

 

[Spark]

Feeling attacked is no reason to carry that adversarial vibe forward to every other individual you address going forward. Defensive posturing doesn’t typically follow a clear conscience. “Show your ass”!? What about any of my previous posts was out of pocket, insulting or inflammatory? You want to know where the line is; that’s at your discretion boss man, since you’ve made it clear us plebes have no say here, but for me personally, if members have presented you with concrete evidence of another member engaging in IP theft (or any criminal or blatantly unethical activity) ANYWHERE, that individual should be removed from membership. Similarly, if someone is a known con artist or thief IRL, but is a new member or dealer on the forums, I’d want them banned immediately, as soon as irrefutable evidence was presented to me, so that I could protect my contingency of members from exposure to unnecessary risk while also helping preserve the good name/reputation of the forums. But hey, now I know my word means shit here, so that’s really encouraging. Thank you for enlightening us as to how you regard our opinions

LMAO you haven't been here long enough to remember people defending actual, literal con artists who lied about their service records & used the blood of dead US servicemen to help line their pockets because "he learned his lesson" and "it's about the knives, not the makers" so SPARE ME your posturing. Matter of fact, it was me standing up against that stuff and getting pushback from various folks for months / years over it. So when I ask where the line is drawn, you might wonder if I have very real, specific examples in mind regarding dishonest & unethical people... especially when I warn that favorite dealers would get blacklisted. I mentioned SHOT & BLADE shows for a reason as well.

I'm not at all surprised that many of you lack the perspective or historical knowledge to understand this in context.

If you want to take things personal when you weren't addressed, that's on you. Likewise if you aren't capable of reading & comprehending the thread to understand where I'm coming from, you might want to try doing that before offering your opinion.

 

[GWashington1732]

I'm going to offer a bit more level headed discussion as, I'm not all pissed off and fuming about this. I disagree with them being here, they seem exceedingly shady but I'm not going to have a damn thrombosis over it. This isn't a dealer selling these clone knives their site, it's the company directly responsible for manufacturing and flooding the market with them. Where is the line, hell if I know, I don't think anyone in this thread knows either. I think everyone is too emotionally invested in this and it's snowballed into an afternoon talk show where everyone is all pissed off throwing chairs. So maybe everyone needs to chill out step away and go feed some ducks or something. Because this problem isn't going to go away tonight, or probably ever, I doubt their advertising here is really the driving factor for their business, and I don't really feel the need to be the hero that Benchmade deserves, I'm sure they have their own lawers. But maybe just everyone chill, step away and revisit where that line is some other time minus the rage.

 

[Fullflat]

LMAO you haven't been here long enough to remember people defending actual, literal con artists who lied about their service records..

I'm not at all surprised that many of you lack the perspective or historical knowledge to understand this in context.

If you want to take things personal when you weren't addressed, that's on you. Likewise if you aren't capable of reading & comprehending the thread to understand where I'm coming from, you might want to try doing that before offering your opinion.

That’s exactly the adversarial tact to which I was referring. Thanks for demonstrating. Laugh it up. Many who read this will not be so lighthearted.

“..take things personal when I wasn’t addressed.”? You quoted me directly in your reply. I’d say that constitutes being addressed.

I read the entire thread, and that’s actually what compelled me to comment. I’ve never seen a mod melt down before. It’s kinda sad

 

[Spark]

That’s exactly the adversarial tact to which I was referring. Thanks for demonstrating. Laugh it up. Many who read this will not be so lighthearted.

“..take things personal when I wasn’t addressed.”? You quoted me directly in your reply. I’d say that constitutes being addressed.

I read the entire thread, and that’s actually what compelled me to comment. I’ve never seen a mod melt down before. It’s kinda sad

LMAO if you think this is a meltdown. This is me being cool. Clearly you should have taken more time to comprehend before posting.

I'm sorry your feelings are hurt. I also notice you glossed right over the meat of the post to focus on how your feelings are hurt. If you would like to talk more about your feelings, you are welcome to take it to a private conversation. In the meantime your sadness is noted.

 

[Fullflat]

LMAO if you think this is a meltdown. This is me being cool. Clearly you should have taken more time to comprehend before posting.

I'm sorry your feelings are hurt. I also notice you glossed right over the meat of the post to focus on how your feelings are hurt. If you would like to talk more about your feelings, you are welcome to take it to a private conversation. In the meantime your sadness is noted.

Your coolness is noted, and is apparent Obviously, lacking the cognitive fortitude to comprehend your enlightenment, I should stop replying to your productive comments now.

Never mentioned my feelings, or being hurt, but ok. Note whatever you’d like, but I wouldn’t waste either of our time in PM, as your stance is clear and clearly locked in, as is mine. Stay chill, cool breeze

 

[SpyderPhreak]

Where, exactly, is the line? That is a very difficult question.

I do see where you're coming from Kevin, and it's not an easy dilemma. I have seen a couple of the lauded member dealers here do some things that weren't necessarily what I'd call ethical. Bad decisions happen, despite our best judgement. Yet they're still here. I think I know what you're getting at wrt SHOT and BLADE shows as well (QTRMSTR anyone?).

I think the primary difference here is that this dealer in question primarily exists to manufacture and sell clones, and there is ZERO question in that if a person even takes a quick glance at their site. They don't exist to support the community or to further the art/technology. They're literally only around to make a quick buck. They're sold directly out of China, by the slow boat, and based on their 60-day return policy (which appears begin when an item is shipped, so by the time it is received, you have little time to do anything about a problem), they don't seem to care one iota about customer service either.

I do realize that no knife company or dealer exists to not make money. For me, it comes down to ethics/morals/integrity. I will do business with people/companies that try to do/be "good", versus a place I know might not. I do not think Topomart is good for our hobby, at all. They drag the whole industry down by de-valuing the hard work that so many people put into this industry when they copy literally everything they can, and sell it so cheaply by subsidizing the manufacture with Chinese government money and near slave labor. I think any association with them is "bad for business", and I think a lot of members here agree with that. Which is why so many of us were shocked when they didn't get the boot immediately. I, for one, thought you would boot them just out of principle. It's your site, you could have just told them to piss off because you don't like them, no further reason needed (at least that's how we all thought it would be).

Back to that line, and where to draw it. I don't know. I can't put a number on it. Does a company making 99.99999% of their money through producing/selling blatant clones and counterfeits get the boot? If it were me, hell yes they would! What about 49%? 51%? 10%??? For me, it would be much, MUCH lower. More like less than 1%. And yeah, I think that if I knew more than I do about what goes on behind closed doors, that would likely severely limit where I buy knives from, and from what manufacturer. That's the gray area, where it would be difficult to make a decision when you have serious skin in the game (like you do).

So, where the line exists for BF is your call, obviously. I think everyone was just surprised at where it was drawn, expected otherwise, and are a bit disappointed. We assumed (yep, that word) that the hard stance against clones here meant that a manufacturer/dealer which existed nearly solely for making/selling clones would not be tolerated here in any way, shape, or form. We were apparently wrong, and we clearly didn't have all the information.

That being said (yeah, I know), Topomart seems to be a pretty blatant, unapologetic cloner. Many of us were shocked to see them not getting the boot ASAP, and people started speculating. When that happens, you always get a few that will start to think the worst, and put their foot in their mouth in the process. Try not to take it too personally. While I don't personally agree with the decision to allow Topomart to stay, it's not my decision to make, and I'll have to live with it whether I like it or not.

We'll get through this. FUCK 2020!

 

[Spark]

If they want to spend $350 and not be able to advertise anything on the forums, that's on them. Or, who knows, maybe they'll have something to offer that isn't a blatant rip off, in which case good for them. While they are here, the line is clear: abide by the site rules.