Bladeforums Supporting Clone Dealer

[000Robert]

The country that caused the problems of 2020 now have a foot in the door of BF. I'm curious to where the line will move to next. I thought that I knew where the line was, but I guess I was wrong.
Cold Steel being sold recently may have something to do with some members, 'thinking the worst'.

 

[jideta]

new guy perspective that I think no one has touched on yet:

I purchase from the member dealers here.
Although they pay to be part of the forum, I look at it like being part of the forum is an endorsement from/of BF, unintentional or not.
Being a dealer here carried some weight because they are a dealer here, even if there was no implied affiliation.
That being said, I feel like the integrity of the community is at stake here, real or imagined.
Community.
That's an important description of how I, and I think most members feel about BF; it's a community.

 

[not2sharp]

So if I understand this, they can sell here, but they are not allowed to talk about what they are selling, and we can buy, provided we don’t discuss what we purchased. Certainly strange times and strange rules.

n2s

 

[DrRollinstein]

Can't see the issue here. Clone seller basically wastes 350 bucks because they can't advertise most of their stock, and blade forums gains 350 bucks with no downside.

Seems like a genuine win win situation to me. Think most of you are just looking to fight about something.

 

[craytab]

I'd like to weigh in from the "I think Spark does a good job and don't think this deserves the hysteria it currently has." The OP appears to be on a crusade because he bought a bunch of clones a while ago and got his ass blown out about it. Now he just can't let it go. This almost feels like his way of getting back at everyone that gave him a hard time. Sad.

Why don't you direct your vitriol towards the people actually selling the clones, the payment processors allowing such clones to be paid for from the USA, and the buyers who buy/sell/discuss such knives - there are a ton of forums and subs where clones are encouraged, they would be worthy of such energy at this thread has already seen.

You've been around here long enough to know how to quote someone so they know you are addressing them. And with that said, I won't be responding to you further in this thread. We don't need off topic personal attacks muddying up the discussion.

 

[craytab]

Other people have mentioned Axis locks or Spyderholes as sore points. Where is the line drawn?

Yes, the axis lock is a trademark that is in effect. It can be argued that Topomart uses the trademark illegally on their homepage which is linked all over your forum. Topomart uses the term axis to describe copies of the axis lock in order to sell knives, and they do it on direct links posted here.

Further, there are various rules about no illegal activities, including using BFC as an intermediary for illegal activity. This is a clear violation of US trademark law and topomart is using BFC to promote the crime. Again, direct link with every single ad.


The evidence I posted earlier:

Okay, after spending a little more time on topomart's website (I'll need a bleach shower now), I've come across a bit of illegal activity.

They are advertising that some knives have an "Ais Lock". That is a Benchmade Trade Mark. Further, you don't need to click any deeper on the website than than going to the home page to see this illegal activity. On a computer, simply go there, hover your mouse over the "lock type" tab, and you will see "Axis Lock". They have no rights to use that term. There is a reason why all the legit manufacturers have come up with their own name for the axis lock.

That means that every single link that takes you to their homepage represent a supporting dealer here stealing the trade marked name from a pillar manufacturexr in the knife industry, Benchmade. No clicking or scrolling required. Right there on the front page.

Pics:

What damage, exactly? There's multiple threads calling these guys out. They aren't advertising clones here. Anyone who is blaming BFC for these guys choices isn't being wise.

Oh it's a bad look. What they do on their site has no bearing on BladeForums.com, just like what any manufacturer or dealer does has no bearing on us. We're not endorsing them. We don't have "BladeForums.com Special [dealer] edition" knives.

What bladeforums has done by taking their money and letting them advertise here, is give them legitimacy by giving them a seat at the table. Do you think they deserve a seat at the table given what they are?

To respond to your question. I have stated in my previous posts and will again ... we aren't talking about a dealer here that may have a few questionable items on a huge site. We are talking about a dealer here who's entire site is questionable along with there sales and customer service practices. I would definitely put the dealers I spoke of up against this one all day everyday as they take care of there customers and don't try to fleece them and actually care that they give the customer a good product. There is a huge difference in the two I'm not sure why you aren't seeing that.

There's a huge difference between a dealer that MAY have some clones that would require you to track them down and @topomart ...a site dedicated ENTIRELY to knockoffs. That's why they immediately set off alarm bells to numerous members.

I'm not sure why Spark can't see the difference between topomart and other dealers who might have a questionable few items. Topomart only has one purpose and it is to sell clones or knives made by people who make clones. That is all they are here to do.

You want a line? That is it.

 

[Boru13]

These are the links. Boru has edited them to remove the offending clones, but it's easy enough for you to look at the post/edit history.

CRK clones

Lionsteel and Benchmade clones

I'm not sure if they were warned for this, but they certainly weren't reprimanded.

No official warning was given, both links were roughly a month old. Future advertising however, will be dealt with accordingly.

 

[EngrSorenson]

"Heavy is the head that wears the crown", still as true in 2020 as it was in 1400.

I respect the decision. We can independently exercise our ethical compasses by spreading the word about clone knives as the issue comes up, and not spending money on them. At the end of the day, if clones weren't profitable we wouldn't have a thread like this to begin with.

Thank you Spark , and sorry for the grief.

 

[crbnSteeladdict]

If they want to spend $350 and not be able to advertise anything on the forums, that's on them. Or, who knows, maybe they'll have something to offer that isn't a blatant rip off, in which case good for them. While they are here, the line is clear: abide by the site rules.

What a convoluted way of thinking.
By letting advertise and keeping money from Topomart Bladeforums is actually helping to commit IP crime.

Think about Broken Window Theory. Muddying ethics becomes a problem and will have Butterfly Effect of lowering quality of Bladeforums. I am sure it will affect what kind of members gravitate toward this forum and how they conduct themselves.

 

[EngrSorenson]

What a convoluted way of thinking.
By letting advertise and taking money from Topomart Bladeforums is actually helping to commit IP crime.

Think about Broken Window Theory. Muddying ethics becomes a problem and will have Butterfly Effect of lowering quality of Bladeforums. I am sure it will affect what kind of members gravitate toward this forum and how they conduct themselves.

Believe me, I'm not happy that this is a discussion that needs to exist in the first place.

But by that logic, which is fine logic, Google is guilty of perpetuating IP theft by allowing the hits to come up in searches.

 

[Eli Chaps]

Unfortunate.

 

[BTTLBRN]

I am a new member with literally no skin in the game (non paying as of yet, though I am strongly considering a Gold membership). I have greatly enjoyed my brief tenure here, and have benefitted from the discussions I have lurked through and read.

I have read through this entire thread and one question I didn’t see asked or answered was what was the original intent on allowing this “dealer’s” entrance in the first place? I suppose the answer is probably and simply forum revenue? If so, great, roll on. It could really be that simple. I don’t claim to know the vetting process, but it would appear to be rather thin? Take their money and let them hang themselves by their actions?

No one owes me an answer, especially since as is clear I haven’t contributed financially to this forum; but as a forum known for serious discussion amongst some rather passionate folks, I do wonder why the “B” team gained entrance?

 

[RoyalHolic]

 

[crbnSteeladdict]

Believe me, I'm not happy that this is a discussion that needs to exist in the first place.

But by that logic, which is fine logic, Google is guilty of perpetuating IP theft by allowing the hits to come up in searches.

Yes. Google's fix is not in my or Kevin's abilities
This dealer issue, at this stage is easily fixable. Do not spread the word about small-time neighborhood fence in hopes that one day he is gonna start selling legitimately acquired goods. Just call cops and kick him out of the town.

 

[danbot]

I think the bottom line is that Topomart has purchased a dealer membership here and until they break the rules they will have a presence here. A lot of members here have enough passion about this issue to inform people of the many, many sound reasons why they shouldn't give them their business. They haven't even come here to defend themselves even though they have been tagged into this conversation many times. Perhaps they only purchased the membership because they thought it would be funny? I don't know. But they sure as shit won't gain any kind of a good reputation in this community. Quite the opposite in fact.

 

[Jordan@DLT]

Spark Its your show here, I see your point to a degree, but I think its clear on one glance that Topomart does not contribute to the community, and like it or not the paid supporting dealer list is seen as a bladeforums endorsement/stamp of approval for that dealer. Countless threads mention to buy from one of the dealers on the paid supporting dealers list to make sure you get an authentic knife, with someone like Topomart on that list, this is now bad info. This whole situation taints bladeforums in my view, which is so sad, because its been the best place for knife discussion for years and years.

Obviously I am biased since I work at a dealer, but this isn't about another dealer having a presence here, I am glad Bladehq, knife center, collector knives, KSF, etc have long had a presence here, that is only beneficial for the community, however Topomart being here is beneficial for no one but topomart and sets a weird tone.

 

[jill jackson]

We tended to think only legit dealers were allowed here. Seems we were mistaken and anyone with knives to sell and 350 can be here. So, we may as well shut up about it and realize we are wrong.

 

[Spark]

Yes, the axis lock is a trademark that is in effect. It can be argued that Topomart uses the trademark illegally on their homepage which is linked all over your forum. Topomart uses the term axis to describe copies of the axis lock in order to sell knives, and they do it on direct links posted here.

Hogue uses a version of the AXIS lock on multiple knives:

https://www.hogueinc.com/knives/partner-exclusives/knifeworks

Do I ban any dealers who carry Hogue?

Benchmade has multiple OTF knives which could be argued are derivatives of Microtech's Ultratech & Scarab designs. Boker has OTFs that are similar Benchmade designs. Do I ban dealers carrying either of those brands? How about the brands themselves? Cold Steel has done many designs that are similar to various other manufacturers. The list of companies is quite long if we want to go down that road.

Some of these dealers & manufacturers support an event in Las Vegas that is used to funnel money to individuals who lied about their military service & profited off the blood of dead US servicemen in order to line their products. Do I ban every brand & dealer & individual who patronizes that event?

Where's the line drawn, craytab ? How much dishonesty are you OK with?

The simplest answer is the position I maintain: I can only control what's done on this website. I am not the final arbiter of what other people do elsewhere. If you want to start a knife cancel culture like what's being done in other hobbies / industries, elsewhere on social media, watch out that you don't shoot yourself in the foot.

Further, there are various rules about no illegal activities, including using BFC as an intermediary for illegal activity. This is a clear violation of US trademark law and topomart is using BFC to promote the crime. Again, direct link with every single ad.

See folks, this is semantics.

[Okay, after spending a little more time on topomart's website (I'll need a bleach shower now), I've come across a bit of illegal activity.

Yes, you've spammed screencaps all over this thread, and I've responded repeatedly that I have zero control over what someone does on their website.

What bladeforums has done by taking their money and letting them advertise here, is give them legitimacy by giving them a seat at the table. Do you think they deserve a seat at the table given what they are?

No that's not what's happened. See the "google" example above. We don't offer ourselves as a vetting service or endorse dealers on this site at all. I can give you a very personal example of how this site is not used to promote any particular dealers if you'd like?

I'm not sure why Spark can't see the difference between topomart and other dealers who might have a questionable few items. Topomart only has one purpose and it is to sell clones or knives made by people who make clones. That is all they are here to do.

So you are ok with IP theft & the like as long as it's only a few items or ones you approve of. Got it.

What a convoluted way of thinking.
By letting advertise and keeping money from Topomart Bladeforums is actually helping to commit IP crime.

See the google example above, and the other brands I've listed. Multiple major manufacturers enable IP crime by outsourcing their parts & manufacturing to China, btw, so are they also enabling IP crime?

what was the original intent on allowing this “dealer’s” entrance in the first place?

It's an automated subscription system, we don't vet members or paid subscriptions because buying a subscription isn't an endorsement of actions. We have multiple paid subscribers who don't post at all, ever, for whatever reason. A paid subscription isn't a license to break the site rules.

 

[Spark]

Spark Its your show here, I see your point to a degree, but I think its clear on one glance that Topomart does not contribute to the community, and like it or not the paid supporting dealer list is seen as a bladeforums endorsement/stamp of approval for that dealer. Countless threads mention to buy from one of the dealers on the paid supporting dealers list to make sure you get an authentic knife, with someone like Topomart on that list, this is now bad info. This whole situation taints bladeforums in my view, which is so sad, because its been the best place for knife discussion for years and years.

Obviously I am biased since I work at a dealer, but this isn't about another dealer having a presence here, I am glad Bladehq, knife center, collector knives, KSF, etc have long had a presence here, that is only beneficial for the community, however Topomart being here is beneficial for no one but topomart and sets a weird tone.

I'd be wary about volunteering to put yourself under the microscope Jordan. In less than 30 seconds on your home page I see you promoting multiple companies who've done some awful things. Are you going to immediately ditch any brand I point out to you, lest the mob starts clamoring?

 

[folder geek]

Not trying to flame the fire but has Spyderco or CRK (just to name a couple manufactures) have/had any comment about this situation? Are they (the manufactures) okay with BFC allowing a dealer that sells clones of their products? Even if the product/clone is not directly advertised on BFC. I feel like this a fair question.