Bladsmth (Stacy Apelt) in latest issue of Blade!

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tryppyr said:
He described it in the videos from the Blade 2007 sessions. The third video in the series would be a focus. It's a "triple quench" method during forging.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIi_8NlnYi0&feature=related
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thats the first time i have seen that video thanks
BTW i must be doing something wrong cause when i HT 52100 with jsut one quench i can temper the blade and still end up at the 62-63 hardness (and i dont even use water for the quench ) also it seems that he is telling us that even tho the out side of the blade cools faster then the inside the hardnesss curves up into the center of the blade due to the multi quenches (seems about as backwards as one could get )
 
hammerfall said:
after look through every single post in this thread, i am now very curious about what excatly are the special treatment Ed does to his steel????

is there a link, or can anyone send some information to me? i would not mind lose one of my balls to see if it really works or not. i can access the lab equipment. do the charpy impact, wear resistance, hardness test..etc. and take photos to compare the grain size.
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hammerfall, here's is a link, not sure if the info is current or complete or not. Scroll down and it's under "52100 ball bearing steel". I think he does other stuff to it too, like edge quenching, heating just the edge with a torch... 30 second soak times between quenches etc...

http://ajh-knives.com/metals.html

(Ooops,... where did my left ball go?) Oh crap! :) LOL

Oh, the sweet nectar of science!
(Goo in a test tube) LOL
 
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butcher_block said:
BTW i must be doing something wrong cause when i HT 52100 with jsut one quench i can temper the blade and still end up at the 62-63 hardness
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There may actually be sound metallurgical reasoning for a triple quench. According to some, it refines the grain size, much like triple normalizing does. I've seen several references to triple quenching in the various heat treating guides.
 
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I am pretty sure he will. I am unaware of KC ever promoting multiple quenches, unless in a normalizing proceedure in which the blade is being prepped for the final hardening quench. I could be wrong, but you might want to back over what you read.
 
let me address a few things quick
i do a multi step down normalization on my 52100 to get the steel ready for the quench
i have also read about using a multi quench that on the 2nd and 3rd quench the hardness comes up (this work i belive was done well before Ed F made it main stream

the thing that shocked me was the hardness its self. now mind you most tool and die steels are made with the intent of having RA to keep size change to a min. that does not mean i want RA in my knife blades

one of the things i try to avoid in my razors (99% of my 52100 is used for them) is carbide banding "wootz" as a blade made to show how much rope can be cut on the slice is much different then a razor ment to push cut hair smoothly

case in point i need to change my honing on my SS razors to make them smoother to the face as i can get them sharp to the point of being too aggressive (also had to change a bit of my HT for razors comparred to my kitchen knives
and thats comparring 52100 to cpm154 (i am tring out CTS XHP as a smoother replacement for 154 in my razors )
 
i just readed that site about ED 52100 treatment. although the discribtion is kind of confusing or maybe a little bit exatrating on the "best" part. but i think his acctrul treatment is good, and can be a possible way to product good quality long using life tools. and i think the tripple quench he used is not a special treatment. it is already successfully used in industary for centuries. cycle quenches is used to refine the grain size, as every time the steel pass the critical temperature the recrysticalization happens, thus refine the grain size. the refinement act more significantly if the cycle quench starts austensitlizing the steel from unbalanced matrix such like martensite. we have GCr15 ball bearing steel in the equal term of aisi 52100. for more important tools made from it, they do the double refinement. with solution treat at 1040°C, oil quench, 720(1h)-780（1h）-720°C（1h）annealing，860°C oil quench, 845°C second quench, 830°C third quench, 820°C final quench. then temper at 160°C。

compare it to the usual anneal-quench-tempering treatment 52100 which is: Hrc 63.5, σ 3500，f 3.2, Ak(unnotched) 4, Kic 1500.

the double refined 52100 is: hrc 62.5, σ 3360, f 3.8, ak 14, kic 1700.

we see that with a little bit of drop on hardness and strenght, the impact toughness and fracture toughness is increased by a relatively large scale.

however you can't do the cycle quench too much. usually 4 cycle is the maxium. because when the grain reach supper fine size, its sort of unstable at high temperature. and there is very likely have a chance that some of the grain can grow tremendously in size, much faster than the other grain. it may cause concentrated strain when steel under heavy stress or impact, cause fatal failure of the tools.
 
Thanks for the explanation hammerfall. I think that pretty much confirms what Ed has been saying, although he does seem to toggle between concrete and abstract language.

When he says things like the steel has a “soul“, I don’t take it literally, but more romantic or poetic...

Blade magazine really isn't a technical journal anyway.
 
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Thanks Hammerfall,

It was very interesting to read about the process.
 
the double refinement i was talking about is something like in this graph. crapy drawing, but easy to understand. i removed the second and third quench in the graph, saved only 2. the 4 cycle suggested in original post is kind of risky. for thin shape such as a blade more quench means more of a chance for shape changing. for more experienced smith you can do the 4 cycles. i just hate straighten, its a damn hard labor work.

the heating rate is perfered slow heat below 650C, high heat when above 650C. also for steel like 52100, the time taken for the steel to be heat up from room temperature to the destination temperature can be caculated as 75 seconds per 1mm for electric furance, 100~120 seconds per 1mm for vaccum furance, salt bath for 50seconds per 1mm. this is really an experience thing with your own furance, you guys knew it better than i do. the holding time i showed on my graph meant the time holded after the blade reached destination temperature.

also the time holds at solution temperature can be changed depends on the thickness or base on knifemaker's action experience. 30mins is usually for >12mm tools such. and you should protect your blade by the anti-oxidation coating while doing the solution. coating thing is cheap, like 3 dollor per kg something. greenish liquid stuff, works up to 1100c.

52100double%20refinement.jpg
 
I am posting this in several places, as I feel that there are some things to clear up.

One thing clear is that pretty much everyone has an opinion on this.
Some will say that there are holes in the procedures as presented, and there is a very understandable caution not to step on any toes.
One person will talk about the poetry of the man, and another about his years of experience.
Others will go "Tish-Tish", you should not talk ill of the man.
Most of the discussion is good debate, and well intended.
There have been several spin-off threads on the topics discussed. To the most, all comments have been civil and on topic. I commend all who have posted on their behavior and restraint.

I'll post my final comments, as I think this subject has had all the good discussion that can be said...leaving room for only degradation.

FINAL COMMENTS:
Contrary to some peoples belief, I do not dislike Ed Fowler. I respect him as a man and a bladesmith. I don't think he is a liar or a fake.

I never doubted he has great ability, fame, and makes a good knife.

I am not a shill for Kevin Cashen....he can, and has, used his own voice when he feels speaking up is needed.

This is not a "My Way" vs "His Way" subject. It is about the articles in Blade magazine.

I believe that some real good will come out of this discussion. Maybe I won't be invited to the next BBQ at the ranch, but those there will certainly be discussing the metallurgy of HT in more depth.
Those attending many other BBQ's, in many places on this planet, will also discuss HT methods....This is all a good thing.

Many new smiths will take some good info from both sides of this issue and do additional studies...resulting in better blades, and better understanding of how they got that way.

I wish Ed Fowler well, and a long and happy life. The best way that this could end is for both of us to come away with some things learned, and pass those things on to others. In not too many years, both of us will be gone, but hopefully, people will still be learning new things.

I am going to stop here. I hope Ed reads this, or someone sends it to him. Happy New year , Ed - Stacy
 
crap. i miss typed quench to qiench in the graph.

and Stacy, you are invited to my BBQ party if you ever have a chance visite shenyang. i have unpoluted clean meat, fruit, rice reserved in my place which you won't find many at other place over here.
 
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Stacy,

Even though I don’t approve of everything you wrote in the letter to Blade or in general, I think it is honorable and noteworthy that you stood up for what you believed to be true and followed through with it.

It took two balls and I respect that. :)
 
2knife said:
Why the reference to Stacy's career as a jeweler? It is simply for context.
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Stacy's work as a jeweler has been reflected in his work as a knifemaker too. He's shown in the past some knives that had integrated gol/silver wire work and integrated stones. Beautiful stuff.
 
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