Bob Dozier can not Bushcraft (Bob Dozier K-36 Bushcraft 2nd Generation)

Thomas,

Respectfully ....

Knife makers like Mora/Frost, Helle, and Roselli have zero grind scandis, and the Laurie scandi blades with very small secondary grinds

Are you saying that the way they grind their blades is due to British bushcrafters, where the market and the influence is that strong to get Swedish, Noregian, and Finish knife makers all grinding a certain way?
Or is the scandi infact a much older grind than a recent marketing fashion?

They all make blades with "small" or "micro" secondary bevels. I have a number of knives by each of these makers, all but one MORA (error?) with secondary bevels. Accordingly, they do not meet the UK "Scandi" standard.

Oh, you say the secondary bevels are "only" small. They are only "slightly pregnant"? The point it that the makers, unlike the purists who define "ScandI" as having a "zero" or single bevel on a low saber grind, seem to believe secondary bevels have some benefit.

The UK bushcraft forum once had a competition between production knives to determine which was "best for bushcraft." An IIsakki won IIRC. The gent who decided it was "best," commented that now that the test was over he was going to put a proper Scandi zero edge on it. Thus he would, I guess, try to "improve" on IIsakki's winning product. :D

Then you have to deal with all the "Scandi" knives that are rhombic, flat ground, hollow ground, or convex.

We need not get into how high the primary bevel is ground.

The all-conquering "zero edge" Scandi, however conceived and whatever in reality, is just one of many forms. They all seem to come sharp, and they all cut.
 
I go back to what one of the earlier posts asks...have you actually used the knife? I have. Cuts great, holds an edge. No I haven't batoned it through an oak tree, but for everything I use a knife for, (traps, tent stakes, food prep, and such), it does just fine. I carry a small diamond hone and a piece of leather to strop. Have had no problem maintaining the edge. Actually I don't remember having to sharpen in the field. Just strop it when I get back home. Is it perfect, no, but it is a dang fine blade. They are all compromises. But, I use a knife for a knife. This isn't one you want to use for a sharpened crow bar.

Doc
 
i do not reply often, but again i feel as tho people's work may get slighted because of others misconceptions. The term bushcraft is a pretty general term related to acquiring skills nessisary to thrive in the bush. A bushcraft skill would be how to properly use a knife, or how to properly use an axe. IMO knives are labeled "bushcraft" knive to help sell better. More and more people are getting into the outdoors again go web surfing and come to the term bushcraft, and it sticks in there minds and mine and im sure a good many of the other forumites here. However I also believe bushcraft solely has to do with one skills. A knife does not make you able to perform bushcraft, it is a tool that assists you in bushcraft. Many people use old hickory knives out in the bush for bushcraft. Is it a knife that falls under todays "bushcraft scandi knife carbon steel wood handle blah blah blah"? Nope. With this little rant ill mention what others have until you use the knife please do not negatively comment on it, for the simple fact that it is not a "bushcraft" knife. Im sure there are 100's of tribe around the world that never heard of the term bushcraft knives, or for that matter care what they are called. They can do more with a 16" blade then what ill ever be able to do. Sorry if I offended anyone.
 
The all-conquering "zero edge" Scandi, however conceived and whatever in reality, is just one of many forms. They all seem to come sharp, and they all cut.

Amen.

Including the Dozier knife. I am now recalling that I was in the pass around for an early version of that knife. As I recall, it cut quite well, everything I asked it to cut.
 
Interesting design. For the guard I have questions if it wont get in the way, but I would give it a try to see how it feels in hand (first try and then maybe buy ;)).

I've an Enzo Trapper in D2 where a small chip came off while carving some tough wood. Didn't abuse the knife when it happened. Maybe some coincidental flaw at that spot in the steel since I didn't find any other issues since (and in the mean time has seen much more use and tough use too).
 
Hrmmm....

I think Thomas is making a great point about the British Bushcraft market pushing for things too far but I also suspect his point is a bit over stated.

A buddy of mine just showed me a Swedish Puuko he got with a date stamp in the 1903 range. The basic blade geometry was a high Scandi/Saber grind. Early Buck fixed blades used saber grinds, my grandfaters 50s vintage no-name Bowie hunter has a saber grind, my Schrade-Walden H-15 has a saber grind.... Point is, the saber grind has been used on a lot of different knives and was common long before British Bushcrafters started clamoring for them. In this regard, I think Thomas's otherwise great point may be a bit overstated or wrongly interpreted.

The knife also had a clear secondary bevel, very obviously naturally convexed from years of free hand sharpening. On Thomas's other point, that the fascination with the "zero" grind is not traditional, I totally agree with that.

"Bushcraft" has long ago moved to the point of being ripe for parody. But given their focus on wood working it's also not surprising they would gravitate towards grinds that do better for wood working.

As a rule, I find that convexed scandi/saber (or convex) grinds offer me the most control and best shaving capability when working with wood.
+ I find it easily to control the angle of the cut by rolling the blade on the rounded shoulder of the saber/scandi grind.
+ I find a convexed apex curls wood better.
+ I find the rounded shoulder hangs up less than the shoulder of hollow grinds on deep cuts in wood.
+ I find that hollow grinds tend to bind when splitting wood (same is true with hollow ground hatchets like the Estwing).
+ I find that saber/scandi or convex ground blades allow for a more laterally stable secondary grind which I find important when working with wood.

Just as the British bushcrafters blindly seek the zero grind Scandi while operating in something of an internet echo chamber, I think the same thing is true when watching "traditional" N. American hunting knife makers respond to the bushcraft/survival knife markets. As noted above, it was common above for early 1900s NA hunting knives to be flat or saber ground. Consider these Marbles.

Vintage-Marbles-Knives-31.jpg

http://masterwoodsman.com/2013/classic-camping-knives/

I *think* the hollow grind started to become more widely used as the manufacturing automation of WWII made it more cost effective and then more common. The hollow grind has real benefits for cleaning game, so the shift to hollow grinds in American hunting knives made good sense.

But this fact doesn't make the hollow grind the best wood working knife grind.

My experience with custom made objects in other domains is that custom makers tend to stay close to their roots. The same can be true for manufacturers. For example, with Ron Hood's passing, Buck started putting hollow grinds on their "survival" knives and only recently reversed this on one of the Ron Hood co-branded knives.
 
Nice pictures.

Wrongly interpreted or unclearly stated. It's not the saber grind that makes the UK "Scandi"; it's the combination of a low saber grind and the "zero edge." But, I think it's clear, many other forms are called "Scandi" by those looking to cash in on the marketing power of the word.
 
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i do not reply often, but again i feel as tho people's work may get slighted because of others misconceptions. The term bushcraft is a pretty general term related to acquiring skills nessisary to thrive in the bush. A bushcraft skill would be how to properly use a knife, or how to properly use an axe. IMO knives are labeled "bushcraft" knive to help sell better. More and more people are getting into the outdoors again go web surfing and come to the term bushcraft, and it sticks in there minds and mine and im sure a good many of the other forumites here. However I also believe bushcraft solely has to do with one skills. A knife does not make you able to perform bushcraft, it is a tool that assists you in bushcraft. Many people use old hickory knives out in the bush for bushcraft. Is it a knife that falls under todays "bushcraft scandi knife carbon steel wood handle blah blah blah"? Nope. With this little rant ill mention what others have until you use the knife please do not negatively comment on it, for the simple fact that it is not a "bushcraft" knife. Im sure there are 100's of tribe around the world that never heard of the term bushcraft knives, or for that matter care what they are called. They can do more with a 16" blade then what ill ever be able to do. Sorry if I offended anyone.

I underlined the specific points in Sig_Op's post that I think nail the whole subject of "tools for bushcraft". Our ancestors put all of our bushcraft skills to shame for tens of thousands of years with knapped stone blades which were certainly not scandi ground. My own personal opinion is that there is not a single specific grind that is perfect for all bushcraft skills. Some grinds work a little better for this job, some work a little better for that job. In the end, attaching the label "bushcraft" more appropriately belongs to the skillset and not to the tool. I'm sure Bob's knife (and many others' knives) would work well for bushcrafting in the hands of a skilled user. Each individual has their own design preferences based on their experience(s).
 
Nice pistures.

Wrongly interpreted or unclearly stated. It's not the saber grind that makes the UK "Scandi"; it's the combination of a low saber grind and the "zero edge." But, I think it's clear, many other forms are called "Scandi" by those looking to cash in on the marketing power of the word.

Thomas, I figured we were in agreement. :thumbup:

Excellent post, Pinnah.

And a beautiful Marbles trio as well! :thumbup:

Not my knives and not my picture. Wish the knives were mine. Cross linked from the article in the link in my post above.

My knives...

Schrade-Walden with a dropped point. Saber grind. Convexed secondary bevel. Thin blade. Decent all-rounder.
Schrade H-15 Modified by Pinnah, on Flickr

Mora Companion HD. Out of the box, I hated the blade. Found the apex to be frail and it was difficult for me to moderate the edge depth in wood. I convexed off the shoulder (it is now polished) and added a secondary (convexed) bevel at 20-dps. Not as good as an all-rounder as the H-15 but the best wood cutting knife I've ever used. This experiment really confirmed the point that Thomas is making about the issues of the 0-grind Scandi.
image by Pinnah, on Flickr
 
Crafty, don't judge all D2 by that one blade.
Mr. Dozier's heat treat of D2 has long ago earned him the nickname Dr D2.

Pinnah, DocGP, Sig_OP, Thomas...great posts
 
Crafty, don't judge all D2 by that one blade.
Mr. Dozier's heat treat of D2 has long ago earned him the nickname Dr D2.

Quite so.

Doesn't just work for little blades either, contrary to urban legend. Moons back I owned a big ole Ontario in 1095, and it was a great shape for a knife. A mate bought exactly the same pattern but in D2. It did everything mine could do, and it didn't go ginger. That irritated the hell out of me at the time. Additionally, although I'm no fan of their company by a long shot, credit where it is due, I've seen a Busse in D2 taking a hell of a beating / flex, and it lived just fine.

Enzos are usually pretty fantastic, so I suspect something in addition to what it was made from. Dunno what.
 
This Scandi business is starting to get as daft as the Nessmuck fad or the term Bushcraft. It's a bucket just about any old pony can be thrown into. Whetted through Scandi, Scandi-Vex Scandi, hollow Scandi. I believe I could market a “full height grind Scandi” and some 'tard would go for it. Who knew the below had Scandi in the name without being told?

v1cb5utl56f5b0yicl9i.jpg


Personally, there are some areas where I'm way getter off just knowing the shape an object needs to be to work well. The buzz phrase for it, the Klingon name for it, the way to spell it in Latin can all go take a hike.
 
Saw some ancient egyptian knives and axes in the Met with I'm sure to them was a "secondary" inclined plane upon they're first flat. About 3,300 B.C. They were all geared to, you guessed it, wood tasks.

I was bummed to find that bushcrafting people weren't bad ass hedge trimmers or bonsai artists. We just used to call it camping. Now that BCUSA trademarked the word, we shouldn't even use it, without paying royalties of course.
 
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This Scandi business is starting to get as daft as the Nessmuck fad or the term Bushcraft. It's a bucket just about any old pony can be thrown into. Whetted through Scandi, Scandi-Vex Scandi, hollow Scandi. I believe I could market a “full height grind Scandi” and some 'tard would go for it. Who knew the below had Scandi in the name without being told?

v1cb5utl56f5b0yicl9i.jpg


Personally, there are some areas where I'm way getter off just knowing the shape an object needs to be to work well. The buzz phrase for it, the Klingon name for it, the way to spell it in Latin can all go take a hike.
Precisely, spot on.
 
Saw some ancient egyptian knives and axes in the Met with I'm sure to them was a "secondary" inclined plane upon they're first flat. About 3,300 B.C. They were all geared to, you guessed it, wood tasks.

I was bummed to find that bushcrafting people weren't bad ass hedge trimmers or bonsai artists. We just used to call it camping. Now that BCUSA trademarked the word, we shouldn't even use it, without paying royalties of course.

BCUSA's filing gives it/them presumptive ownership of "Bushcraft" when used as the name of a forum - period. It can be used in any other context.
 
BCUSA's filing gives it/them presumptive ownership of "Bushcraft" when used as the name of a forum - period. It can be used in any other context.

"Providing an on-line forum for bushcraft; Providing on-line forums for transmission of messages among computer users concerning bushcraft." that latter part, just like we're doing now. Which is why it's the perfect example. Anyone remember back when Microsoft tried to trademark windows and was rejected? Two years later they got it. Every window supplier and washing business wasn't instantly sued, but you got a grasp for what was legally being considered for future litigation in their product niche. Although in this poor word's case the reason why it was trademarked is very clear.

How that all works out in relation to this Dozier is more a matter of how a made up word gets translated into features on a blade. Much to the good humor of baldtaco :thumbup:

There's a point when most companies and knife makers have a technology and go looking for a problem to solve.
 
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Sure, I think you're missing the point. There's countless books instructing children to do these tasks from the 1900's. Terms like woodcraft, campcraft and camp handicraft were used to describe camping. In none of which does the "bushcraft" knife appear until fairly recently as the term was co-opted for commercial use intended to describe use case. I think if you wanna make up whatever word you want for spending time outdoors, great, just don't waste your money on tools you don't need.
 
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