Bob Dozier can not Bushcraft (Bob Dozier K-36 Bushcraft 2nd Generation)

[Hammer67]

I think if you wanna make up whatever word you want for spending time outdoors, great, just don't waste your money on tools you don't need.

How about "Woods-wanking?"

I think it's fairly safe to say that no forum will ever go to the effort to trademark that phrase.

And really, in many ways, it's a pretty accurate term...

 

[B34NS]

I'm for it

 

[Thomas Linton]

Sure, I think you're missing the point. There's countless books instructing children to do these tasks from the 1900's. Terms like woodcraft, campcraft and camp handicraft were used to describe camping. In none of which does the "bushcraft" knife appear until fairly recently as the term was co-opted for commercial use intended to describe use case. I think if you wanna make up whatever word you want for spending time outdoors, great, just don't waste your money on tools you don't need.

I absolutrely did miss your point.

 

[Spiggles]

I prefer to be a "crafty Bushman" than a "bushcrafter".

 

[neeman]

How about "Woods-wanking?"

I think it's fairly safe to say that no forum will ever go to the effort to trademark that phrase.

And really, in many ways, it's a pretty accurate term...

Excuse me for saying but...
There are a whole bunch of wankers out there trying to claim bushcraft, woodcraft, scandi, and survival; just to make a buck.

 

[foxyrick]

As bad as that is, what's even worse is the system that allows them to do so.

Frankly it makes me want to start a bushcraft forum, and let them try to come after me.

 

[pinnah]

Sure, I think you're missing the point. There's countless books instructing children to do these tasks from the 1900's. Terms like woodcraft, campcraft and camp handicraft were used to describe camping. In none of which does the "bushcraft" knife appear until fairly recently as the term was co-opted for commercial use intended to describe use case. I think if you wanna make up whatever word you want for spending time outdoors, great, just don't waste your money on tools you don't need.

Hmm....

It's super interesting to go back and re-read Sears (aka Nessmuk) as an example of early Romantic outdoor recreation. Attitudes towards being outside shifted in the late 1800s and early 1900s. Prior, being outdoors meant settling the frontier, agricultural work or warfare. Nessmuk's writing is one voice in many that came out of Victorian Romanticism that advocated going to wild places as a way of personal betterment and the novel idea of outdoor recreation. This eventually lead to things like the Appalachian Mountain Club, the Sierra Club; writers like Thoreau, Leopold and Muir and the establishment of our National Parks.

My sense is that the romantic outdoor recreation is the counter-balance to the industrial development of the late 1800s an early 1900s and with that, mass produced knives, marketing and a drift towards a consumer-based economy and more deeply and sadly consumer-based personal identity. Self-actualization through purchasing. It goes back to "dudes" going west to play cowboy or climbers buying their obligatory SAK to be just like Harvey Manning. Scouting... same thing. Marbels had their "Woodcraft" model. It was a knife model, made and sold to a particular audience that defined their outdoor recreation a certain way. Now we have Bear Grylis. As my BIL says, "same circus, different clowns".

In terms of the design itself, it seems to me that Kephart + Puuko + a book by Mors Kohanski ==> bushcrafter knife.

To put it another way, bushcraft is worth of parody but that doesn't distinguish it among outdoor recreational pursuits. Same could be true of climbers, survivalist and hunters and on and on.

 

[tknife]

This has drifted off topic from the original topic of the knife. But I have to always chuckle when any of us (myself included) consider ourselves as "hardcore woodsmen". I do have some skills in various outdoor/primitive/survival etc. I just enjoy learning it. But rarely do I spend more than a few days out in the woods. We all come home to our beds, TV's, refrigorators and microwave ovens. We get up and go to work, deal with bills, traffic and all the modern troubles too. We go to the woods for recreation, to escape and unwind, basically playing out in the woods for fun. I'm not sure many here will ever have to depend on their knife and survival/bushcraft gear like we may fantasize about in our minds. I have attained what is to me, the ultimate "bushcraft" knife. For whittling sticks, opening packages and cutting food (most of my woods cutting) I can do with a $10 Mora. But, the dialogue is fun and interesting! Otherwise I would not have been on this forum for jeez, 15 years

 

[B34NS]

Sure everyone's got heroes and times they romance about between the pages. Times are very different now. Sure the commercial knife industry as far as I can tell goes back (at least recorded) 5,500 years ago B.C., probably a heck of a lot older than that to be fair, from what I've seen historical specimen-wise. Not trying to downplay the names above contribution of getting the civilized outdoors, but it's easily arguable that all their advice is still scientifically or ecologically sound today. Who doesn't enjoy walking the PCT or the JMT and feel for a moment when all the euro tourists have moved on what it was like for those guys back when. Muir carried a pretty minimal pack, but had a beloved pocket knife to carve things when he had spare time. Fast forward to today, and (Pinnah - I've seen and appreciated your early posts about camping LNT in another thread) if even half of the nearly 4 million people who visit there get the same idea, thousands of years of irreparable damage can be done to the forest floor.

This is my greatest concern, it's not the inefficient novelty knives that are being produced for market share, but it's this niche culture of going back to primitive, frontier, simpler times that's potentially dangerous for the ecology we love as in none of those earlier texts does it site substantiated environmental impacts. It's fun skills to learn, to cherish and pass on, but I'm not sure promoting a knife to go cut all the wood in sight is the best idea for novice enthusiasts. We live in a modern world with far better materials and researched based design. I'm sure those guys were around today we'd have to fight them out of our camp for always borrow gear. Although I share none of the romance for replicas, hero knives, or any other modern take on knives from antiquity, I can see why some love em. Have at it. I'm for keeping the lights on for guys like Dozier. It's this battle of the lists "My list kicks your lists ass" mentality that has nothing to do with the outdoors and more to do with keeping score that has presumed a persona that I'd like to steer as many good outdoors people away from as possible and instead foster good habits for learning.

I'm for just about anything that gets people out in the wilderness, but as long as it retains a message of respect for nature and not trying to prove something over a campfire. I'd rather people learn the fundamentals instead, not just how to light the fire, but where to have it if at all, and how to put it out properly. Perfect scenario, week before last @6,000ft elv. south of mariposa grove I came across a haphazard fire ring that had been left for at least a few hours still smoldering enough to bring my coffee water to a boil. I don't have to mention the insane number of fires up in that area this last month. That kinda stuff is what I'd like to avoid. It's what's in your head that counts, not what's riding on your hip.

 

[pinnah]

B34NS,

I agree with you whole-heartedly.

In New England public lands, I've always been able to find common use fire rings. Follow a maintained trail and then follow any brook away from the trail that crosses the trail within 1 or 2 miles. Almost without exception I find old fire rings.

My sense is that the problem is getting worse in the past few years. Maybe the survival show craze really is having an impact. When on a hike last October and passed 3 different parties that we doing the high impact bush crafty fire thing. All 3 of them were in violation of USFS restrictions on minimum distances from both trails and water sources.

I think it best to try to learn from all aspects of being outdoors. I tell my backpacking/climbing buds that they should hunt to learn how to travel off trail. You see this all time with "backcountry" skiers coming from ski areas with zero backcountry training. Same way, the knife and fire craft of bushcraft are good techniques for any backpacker or climber to learn.

But going in the other direction, it's long over due for the bushcraft and survivalist crowds to clue in about no/low impact techniques. It's like we've gone back to the 70s.

 

[22-rimfire]

My sense is that the romantic outdoor recreation is the counter-balance to the industrial development of the late 1800s an early 1900s and with that, mass produced knives, marketing and a drift towards a consumer-based economy and more deeply and sadly consumer-based personal identity. Self-actualization through purchasing. ....

The automobile changed EVERYTHING beginning in the early 1900's.

Great discussion on Bob Dozier's bushcraft knife. I am a Dozier fan and tend to accept Bob's judgement as to what works. But there is a merchandising aspect to producing a bushcraft knife. There are so many now; so why not a Dozier version?

 

[sams]

I think,................. too much thought on Bushcraft. Not important. But a knife that is sharp, works hard without failing is important. Dozier knife works. The end of stories.

 

[RUNIT]

Thomas hits the nail squarely on the head with that observation.

"Scandi" is as much about the style and usage of the knife as it is about the actual final grind.

Those that think that a true "Scandi" is only a zero edge saber grind have not studied the history of the traditional tools of those tough Scandinavian people.



Big Mike

This knife here looks like it had a run in with a belt grinder and lost. Probably had more of a "traditional" scandinavian grind on it at one time.

 

[failbot]

That is true scandi
Roselli 80's

Ahti new

Mora Laplander 80's

and small Laplander

HELLE NORWAY

Pontus Holmberg Eskilstuna Sweden 1920-30's

 

[Thomas Linton]

"Scandi" means different things to different people.

If you mean no secondary bevel is a "true Scandi," I have a Roselli "Hunter" that came from Roselli with a small secondary bevel, and dozens of other Nordic knives that are the same.

 

[SAK Guy]

"Scandi" means different things to different people.

If you mean no secondary bevel is a "true Scandi," I have a Roselli "Hunter" that came from Roselli with a small secondary bevel, and dozens of other Nordic knives that are the same.

Mora's Bushcraft Blacks ship with a small secondary as well....

 

[Sidehill Gouger]

The so-called "Scandi" grind was a relatively recent development of UK "bushcrafters." A couple of decades back, no one had heard of it.

The "Scandi" is not traditional in Scandinavia or Finland. I have many knives from that area, custom and factory, and I have handled many more. Very few meet the UK definition of a "Scandi" grind. Well over 90% have a secondary bevel. Many customs are slightly hollow ground since the makers use wheels to grind them. Some are convex. Some are diamond-shaped in cross section. Some are flat-ground. Some have fullers.

Even the mod of the Scandi forum at BritishBlades tried to explain to the panting multitudes that the "Sandi" was not advised for actual work in the bush and was not traditonal, but a myth is apparently more attractive than reality.

Will a Nordic maker turn out such a knife for you? Sure. They also make bowie pattern hunting knives with large double guards, and they laugh all the way to the bank.

Nor is the "Scandi" traditional with professional wood carvers. But what could they know about carving wood?

What, for that matter, could Bob Dozier know about making a cutting tool?

If you read old Scandivian wood carving books, they often recommend regrinding factory edges to this flat, no bevel profile for more efficient wood working. I don't think it ever was considered the ideal all-purpose outdoor edge. As for Bob Dozier's knives, I've never had one that didn't out cut 90% on the market.

 

[Thomas Linton]

And as I have observed before, my wife's grandfather was a professional word carver, and his knives (all simple Sloyd-type knives) all have a convex secondary bevel. He was brought from Germany to carve the woodwork in the private Pullman cars of the swells of the Gilded Age, Vanderbilt, Leland Stanford, and the like.

 

[Phoynix]

Two knives could both be perfect "bushcraft" knives and yet be entirely unsuitable for two different master "woodsmen".
One survives mostly on small game and making snares and traps with his knife, the other hunts larger game and relies on his rifle and tracking skills to find food and the knife to simply carve it up and to process wood along with a small saw, while the other carries a small axe to help making larger traps and processing wood. Neither one could be considered better then the other they can both survive for long periods of time in the bush, yet both use different sets of skills and equipment to do so and require a different knife to best utilize those skills.

I personally don't like the knife, its not suitable for me, on the other hand if I had nothing and found it while fighting nature for my very survival I would be feel blessed.

 

[Student762]

Whittling's my hobby and I have to say all my knives have a full flat grind (or I've convexed them) which works pretty good if you ask me. I think if you ask any wood carver what he sharpens his knife to he'll tell you a different story from another. I know some guys who put a microbevel on their chisels and gouges. One of my friends had a full flat or "true" scandi and we both tested it with one of mine. The scandi was definitely sharper with that incredibly acute edge but it damaged rapidly. In my locale we're surrounded with good old Aussie hard woods, which will knock the stuffing out of an edged tool like nothing else, the scandi didn't like it all that much. The convex, on the other hand, with that additional material behind the edge and the rounded shoulders stood up much better. I guess the point is there's no "ultimate" grind for any knife for all purposes.
Back on to the topic of the knife in question. I really like the looks of it. I'm also a pretty big fan of D2 so this looks like serious investment opportunity for me. perfectly catered to my needs really.
With that cat amongst the pigeons...