Bob Miller - Holly Knives **BAD**

R

Ryan Meyering

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It's Bob and Andrea Miller of Holly Knives at http://www.daytona2000.com/knives/ that I posted about before. The item I mentioned was a stained glass lamp, for which I paid $500.

The item was broken in shipment due, I believe, to inadequate packaging. It was made of glass and the box didn't even have a Fragile sticker on it.

Andrea insured the item for its full value, and now says she will refund my money only when/if the post office reimburses her. Bob Miller supports this; I've had e-mail conversations with both of them. Fixing the item or providing a replacement isn't an option; it was for my wife's birthday and it wouldn't be done on time.

My contract with the maker shouldn't be contingent upon her receiving the money from the post office, since the insurance contract is between her and the post office and does not involve me. There are only two possible outcomes of the insurance contract; either the post office will take responsibility and reimburse her or they will determine that the breakage was her fault and not reimburse her. Either way, I don't think I should be liable.

At this time she has my money and I have nothing. I've done everything I can to resolve this, including giving them my phone number. I haven't received a call or any resolution other than I'm not seeing a penny unless the Post Office pays them. I've filed a complaint with the Better Business Bureau, but they don't seem to be taking that seriously.

The thing that really bugs me, along with the fact that I now have no gift for my wife and no money to buy one, is that I've recommended Bob's knives to others, have bought a couple myself and I don't understand why they're doing this.
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Ryan




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For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 6:23


 
I guess I'm not the only one who encountered people like this...
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Hope you get your money back soon, Ryan..

Dan
 
I hope they respond to this here.

I would like to see what they have to say.

So far I'm with you 100%.

There is a thread here somewhere about it's the senders responsibility until the buyer receive the item.

Did you tell them you were going to post this here?

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RICK - Left Handers Unite

[This message has been edited by RGRAY (edited 04-12-2000).]
 
I can't believe people conduct business like this. There was a guy on ebay that had a Randall Mini 25 I was interested in until I read his shipping terms. Man, what double talk and BS this guy posted. Basically that he will do you a favor by purchasing the insurance for you (with your money of course) but it is up to you to file a claim and he will not reimburse you. Almost unbelievably, he requires that you get insurance if you pay him by credit card. Talk about Customer Service. I would never do business with a con artist like this. It looks like you got scrooged big time on this and I hope these people realize what they're doing and come to their senses and reimburse you.
 
Originally posted by RGRAY:

Did you tell them you were going to post this here?
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Yes, I did. He claims that he looked for my post and couldn't find it, although I gave him a direct link once the post was up. He also said if I mentioned Holly Knives he'd sue for slander, since Holly Knives has nothing to do with it. On the contrary, Holly Knives has everything to do with it since Bob Miller was involved in the transaction and he advertises his wife's stained glass work on his website.

So far, their side of the story has been that if Andrea refunds the money, she'll have done all that work and have only a broken lamp to show for it. But that's not the point. If she had packed it better and marked the package "Fragile - Glass" or something it probably wouldn't have been broken in the first place. Now that it is broken, all she has is her insurance contract with the PO. Maybe it'll work out and maybe not. Either way, it shouldn't affect me getting a refund.

Ryan


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For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 6:23


 
I would hope that they refund your money, and THEY go fight it out with the post office. Until you get your money, it's like you've given them a $500 interest free loan!

Do you have the lamp now, or did it get mailed back to them? Just curious, because it seems that you are in a helpless position right now, unless you take legal action against them (which should be your LAST resort). I hope they do the right thing.

~Mitch
 
Originally posted by UW Mitch:


Do you have the lamp now, or did it get mailed back to them? Just curious, because it seems that you are in a helpless position right now, unless you take legal action against them (which should be your LAST resort). I hope they do the right thing.

~Mitch
Click to expand...

I had to give the lamp to the Post Office for their inspection.

There's no way I'm flying to Florida to sue over $500. I'm not interested in pursuing legal action, just in getting my money so I can buy a replacement present for my wife. If that's not going to happen, at least maybe I can help one of you to not make the same mistake I did.

Ryan


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For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 6:23


 
Ryan,

Did you send payment through the mail? If so, contact the Postal Inspectors in the town where they live. That makes it a Federal case and the Postal Inspectors don't mess around. There is a perp in Mobile Alabama who went to jail for 6 months after I sicked the Postal Inspectors on him.
 
Chief,

Yes, I sent payment through the mail. But, does this constitute fraud?

Ryan

------------------
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 6:23


 
Well, I think right now their integrity is in question. To me a knife makers integrity will make or break him/her. If for no other reason, they should refund your money and gain back a little integrity so we don't outright boycott them. (a "boycott" could in theory cost them more than refunding your money)...just a thought.

I hope you get this worked out.

~Mitch
 
Ryan, please pursue this with the Postal authorities where they live so maybe at least this wont happen to someone else. Also, we should all pass the word not to do business with Holly knives unless they do what's right.
Also, maybe if they received a lot of email from forumites they would get the picture.
Please let us know if they correct their mistake. Just my .02.

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Dave (Phil.4:13)
I Can Do All Things Through Him Who Strengthens Me

[This message has been edited by lifter4Him@aol.com (edited 04-13-2000).]
 
yup. Got to agree. A boycott costs more than the purchase price. Especially since the price of the lamp has a profit margin built in. So yes Im sure she spent a good amount of time on it but material costs are probably far less than 500. Bottom line is if I order anything and it arrives broken or not to my satisfaction, especially something bought sight unseen, I expect a refund or exchange. That almost goes without saying.

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ALex

http://home.att.net./~a.boriqua
 
Ryan, I hope you get your money back soon. I have noticed his knives on Ebay. I'm not that familiar with Ebay feedback, but it sure seems like this issue should be addressed there. More people should be aware of their practices. Good luck.
 
For what its worth I was told that Holly's knives are all made from kits and pre done blanks that he then puts his name on.They sound like real sleazebags to do business with and I will spread the word. Miller must be pretty stupid to not realize how many potential customers read this stuff and will remember this low down business practice of his. Sounds like the old throw a dollar out the window to save a penny school of thought.Hope things work out Ryan.
Bob
 
Ditto all, esp. UWMitch and Lifter. I will definitely contact Bob and Andrea Miller and urge them to do the right thing. I have not done business with them previously. If they treat a REPEAT customer this way, then why should I consider them seriously?

Best of luck, Ryan. Keep us posted and we'll do what we can.

Glen
 
Originally posted by Big Tex:
Ryan, I hope you get your money back soon. I have noticed his knives on Ebay. I'm not that familiar with Ebay feedback, but it sure seems like this issue should be addressed there. More people should be aware of their practices. Good luck.
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I didn't buy the item on E-bay, so I can't leave negative feedback there. The folks I'm most concerned with are the ones here, anyway.

Thanks, guys, for your help. I think I'll go ahead and contact their local Postal Inspector to see if there's anything they can do.

Ryan


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For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 6:23


 
PS -- Here's a copy of the e-mail I sent to the Millers this morning.

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Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 09:31:32 -0700 (PDT)
To: BAH8@aol.com
From: Glen Mimura <gmimura@yahoo.com>
Subject: Ryan Meyering

Dear Bob and Andrea Miller,

I am an admirer and collector of knives and a participant in the online knife discussion community. I recently learned of your interactions with one of your repeat customers, Ryan Meyering, through the current discussion board thread:
www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum25/HTML/000687.html

The damage to the stained glass lamp was an unfortunate occurrence, for which you may or may not be partly accountable. What you are fully responsible for, however, is your treatment of your customers.

Ryan purchased a work from you which he has not received (at least not in "agreed-upon" form). It was for his wife's birthday and, I understand, cannot be replaced in a timely manner. It follows, therefore, that the most appropriate response would be for you to refund Ryan in full for the $500 which he paid to you -- immediately and with apologies for the unfortunate circumstances.

The damage to the lamp was due to no fault on his part. The insurance which you wisely paid for the shipment financially secures you in *your* relationship with the mail carrier; it is not intended to hedge your costs/expenses in relation to your customers. Using it in such a manner may well be illegal. In any case, should you decide, for *whatever* reason, to NOT fully refund Ryan, you shall be violating the terms of your agreement with him, and you will force him to seek legal recourse to rightfully reclaim his $500.

More important than this considerable sum, however, your actions have soured your relationship with a loyal (as I understand it, repeat) customer. Ryan clearly admires your work and, in the past, has potentially earned you more business by passing your name on to others. At the very least, he has favorably enhanced your reputation. Every other knifemaker I know cherishes this kind of customer and would treat him with the utmost respect. Ryan's enthusiasm for your work and his trust in your business practices represent the best qualities of the knife/cutlery (so-called "knifeknut") community. Your actions here jeopardize not only your relationship with an individual customer, but also your status in our larger, shared community.

I was not aware of your work prior to this matter. Usually, when I learn of a knifemaker (or other craftsperson/artist) whose work I am unfamiliar with, it is an exciting occasion. Indeed, I visited your website and much appreciate what I saw. Unfortunately, this unfortunate situation negatively colors my regard for your professional/business conduct, irrespective of how I feel about the quality of your work. I urge you to do the right thing here and refund Ryan Meyering immediately, with apologies for the unfortunate series of events, in order to restore your good reputation.

With regret,

Glen Mimura
Irvine, CA
 
Ryan-they're at it again. I sent them an email last night about ripping you off. Now they're claiming that you still have the shade and wont provide THEM with the PO claim number. Ryan, I know you're telling the truth. Please go to the postal authorities and press charges or they're gonna make you look like the bad guy.
 
Terribly sorry this happened to you Ryan, I just sent my email.

-AR

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- AKTI Member ID# A000322
 
Originally posted by lifter4Him@aol.com:
Ryan-they're at it again. I sent them an email last night about ripping you off. Now they're claiming that you still have the shade and wont provide THEM with the PO claim number. Ryan, I know you're telling the truth. Please go to the postal authorities and press charges or they're gonna make you look like the bad guy.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the heads up, Lifter. Bob is lying to you. I offered in an e-mail on April 11 to provide Bob and Andrea a copy of my claim form and receipt. I've now scanned these documents and sent them to Bob. The claim and receipt are linked below. As you can see, the claim was signed and dated 04/04/00 and stamped by the Post Office on 04/06/00.


http://www.geocities.com/ryanmeyering/claim.jpg


http://www.geocities.com/ryanmeyering/receipt.jpg

Ryan

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For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 6:23


[This message has been edited by Ryan Meyering (edited 04-13-2000).]
 
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