Boo to Tactical Knives

Originally posted by hardheart
More ad space for the knock off artists.

Who the hell reads these mags? Knife enthusiasts? The knock off artists aren't making any money off of you, they're spending it on ads. I don't see how buying a magazine supports the advertisers.
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The magazine generates revenue from advertisers and from sales to subscribers and retail outlets. When you purchase a magazine that contains ads by companies that steal designs from legitimate knifemakers you are, in effect, telling the magazine that they can take money from dubious sources and you'll just look the other way.

I don't like it so I walk. It's really quite simple. Buy the magazine or look the other way, neither one does anything to combat the proliferation of knockoffs. However, hitting the magazine in the pocketbook can, and will, have the desired effect of letting them know that promoting this kind of product is absolutely unacceptable to those of us who should know better.

It's not just about ignoring the issue and letting the magazines go down the toilet. Maybe three knife magazines is too many. If we only had one resource for our passion perhaps they could generate enough advertising income from legitimate makers to tell the knockoffs to take a hike.
 
Originally posted by Mick Strider



Its EQUALLY offensive....but has not changed, and its because of people like you who support their sickly crap.


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Mick...did I say I supported their "sickly crap" ? I don't own or desire to have a Linton or a Strider. Nor am I saying that is is ok to ripoff a design. I am just raising the point that the magazines, all of them, are full of direct Randall copies, Loveless copies, Fisk copies, Moran copies...and I am sure that most are not approved or liscensed. This occurs from production firms as well as custom makers. The magazines report on knives like this all the time. Why take all this out on TK? You advertise with them.

Let me ask you this, not as an argumentative point, but rather as good info, since your company is so successful....do you think that Strider is losing money to Linton? I would tend to think those people who would lean towards buying a Strider would never look twice at a Linton.

Is it ok to ripoff a design?....no....but I remember some time back bladesmith Jimmy Fikes, (or maybe Fogg) was asked the definition of a knife...his response...and dont quote me verbatim, was something like, "it's a pointy sharp piece of metal....and beyond that it gets more complicated"
 
While I do believe that there should be certain standard in advertising, seeing knockoffs advertised in knife magazines doesn't really bother me. What matters to me is the magazine's policies regarding what they will and will not support with their articles. Magazines that promote knockoff manufacturers with glowing reviews are not going to see a penny of my money. Do an article on the shabby ethics of these manufacturers and have the courage to give examples of who the companies are that do this and a magazine will have gone a long way towards having me as a customer for life.

It is my choice where I spend my money and I choose not to support Tactical Knives. Will this affect the profits of Tactical Knives? Not a bit. Now, if all the knife knuts that have subscriptions or purchase the magazine at news stands decided to take a stand, would that hurt Tactical Knives where it counts? You bet it would. Magazines like Tactical Knives could not afford to lose a few thousand sales. Not only would it directly hurt profits from lost sales, it would also hurt from lost advertising revenue. Advertising rates are determined by distribution numbers. The fewer magazines a company sells, the less they can charge for ads.
 
Ok so all of you with your panties in a wad who have jumped on the I'm not going to support TK what's your end goal? Get them to change who they review? Ok fine hope you got the money to sway their opinion being as that's the only thing that motivates them Right? Better freaking double your subscriptions instead of canceling them.
Or maybe now we want TK to go out of business? Fine get off your asses and print up a better damn magazine cause I'm going to be pissed if I'm stuck with only Blade and Knives Illustrated to read. I happen to like TK and I don't give two tin Shi#s who they review so long as I get a good read out of it. I have internet access so I get the whole up to the second information on new releases and things like that. Some people don't have that opportunity. Some of us like taking a copy of TK to the bathroom to read. I happen to like being able to go back over a review I liked and double check something when ever I feel like it. You are all the same bunch of people who argue tooth and nail the second you feel your knife rights are being infringed and now that THE ONLY GODDAM TACTICAL KNIFE PUBLICATION has offended you you're going to freaking walk. Get off your damn high horses and do something positive about it. Canceling your subscription I say damages the knife community more than anything else you might have hoped to get out of it. You got a problem with the magazine then use your damn voice and tell Stephen Dick what's wrong with it.

Pick one:

1. Shut the hell up and get off the damn bandwagon
2. Write to Stephen Dick and tell him what you'd like to see done with the magazine
3. Print your own damn magazine.
 
Man, I miss Fighting Knives magazine:( At least Greg Walker told it straight.

Write Steven Dick all you want. From what I've seen he could care less as long as he gets a paycheck. Cant blame the man for that.
 
Originally posted by Brian_T
Thom,


Mick can't take it upon himself to chase down those stealing his designs because he wouldn't have the time to make knives. It's also prohibitively expensive to chase down knockoffs through the courts. As soon as one company is taken down another pops up in its place.
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Exactly how would this be proved in court anyway? Unless it was stamped "STRIDER" you would have more than a hard time proving it as a stolen design. I dont think you'd have anymore luck sueing Linton for the Strider copy, than EK would going after Strider for having paracord wrapped handles.
 
Damn.. Way to put my breaks on. Alright first Everyone ought to check out that link Jeff put up. It puts a clearer light on the situation for me at least. Now I'm starting to follow the real issue. Ok cool I'm down with that. I'm going to that meeting. Thanks Jeff.
 
Originally posted by Chambers
Ok so all of you with your panties in a wad who have jumped on the I'm not going to support TK what's your end goal? Get them to change who they review? Ok fine hope you got the money to sway their opinion being as that's the only thing that motivates them Right? Better freaking double your subscriptions instead of canceling them.
Or maybe now we want TK to go out of business? Fine get off your asses and print up a better damn magazine cause I'm going to be pissed if I'm stuck with only Blade and Knives Illustrated to read. I happen to like TK and I don't give two tin Shi#s who they review so long as I get a good read out of it. I have internet access so I get the whole up to the second information on new releases and things like that. Some people don't have that opportunity. Some of us like taking a copy of TK to the bathroom to read. I happen to like being able to go back over a review I liked and double check something when ever I feel like it. You are all the same bunch of people who argue tooth and nail the second you feel your knife rights are being infringed and now that THE ONLY GODDAM TACTICAL KNIFE PUBLICATION has offended you you're going to freaking walk. Get off your damn high horses and do something positive about it. Canceling your subscription I say damages the knife community more than anything else you might have hoped to get out of it. You got a problem with the magazine then use your damn voice and tell Stephen Dick what's wrong with it.

Pick one:

1. Shut the hell up and get off the damn bandwagon
2. Write to Stephen Dick and tell him what you'd like to see done with the magazine
3. Print your own damn magazine.
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Chambers,

Let's try and keep this professional. We all now know which side of this issue you're on. ;)

I think you're right. Bellyaching isn't going to get it done. However, I think your three options are a bit lacking in creativity. There are many other ways to address the issue and THAT is what we're trying to get to here.

It's NOT about running TK out of business, we wouldn't want to disrupt your good reads. It IS about the seemingly equal status knockoffs have been given in the May 2004 issue of TK.

Thanks for your input though. If you want to take the attitude down a notch I, for one, would be more than happy to hear more from you.
 
I look at the copies of knives such as the Loveless Black Bear, the Randall Model One and the Moran St-23 with a less harsh view than I do the copies of knives such as Strider.
Randall, Loveless and Moran helped write the fukkin book on custom knives/high end knives, knife design and knife making. They are classics, they are among the knife-caste that is equal to the art words master-caste of DaVinci, Van Gough, etc.
Anyone who spends a lot of time in art schools or galleries will see todays artists paying tribute and taking the concepts and ideas of the old masters and putting them into their work, their own twist on copying them.

From another view the designs put out by Randall, Loveless, etc. have become as classic and as common as the slipjoint patterns, the Kbar style, or the "bowie" - they are a part of our culture and have become almost as "open source" as any of the other seriously classic styles.
When I see Cold Steel, or BlackJack making Randall M1 style knives I look at it like this - it is a tribute to the designer that that design has held on long enough, and is respected well enough, to merit this.

Also, whoc arries their $450 Randall, their $18,000 Black Bear, or their $25,000 St-23 - NO ONE. Maybe a few of us pack our Randalls, but really, for how many folks is it an EDC blade? Right - not many.
I dont have the money to f*ck up a $400 knife, or have to throw it in the river after some thugs makes me stab him and I need to get out of dodge, but a $100 Blackjack of Cold Steel, you bet. Same for the other copies of classic designs.

Now, when it comes to copying modern makers like Strider - there is a major difference.
If a single custom knife maker writes Mick and says "Mr.Strider, I am a real fan of your designs, and really like the MT model - would it be okay if I made a single MT style knife, for my own use?" - thats respectful, thats honoring the design.
When a company like Linton looks around, looks for the most popular, most talked about, high end knives, and knocks them off at lower prices simply for the purpose of stealing money from Strider (or whoever) and capitalizing on the hard-work of that company or maker, that is f*cking LOW.
A current hot maker is not the classic the old masters are, he may be good, he may be great, but he isnt at that place yet - when a copy is made of HIS knives its purely for making money, its stealing, because that maker is a hot commodity at the moment and money can be made by screwing him, taking his designs, making them ****** and selling them cheap to people who want the looks but are too ignorant to know why there is a price difference.
That sh*t is wrong, plain and simple.

Steven DICK is the most aptly named human being in the whole universe.
I like to read knife magazines, TK included, but I rarely buy it, and havent thought about buying it since they talked about the ATC knock-offs favourably. I will flip through it on the news-stand, and if there is an article I want, I'll either copy it off in my notebook or have a friend who does buy it make me a photo-copy. I wont give them my money.
As a knife-maker, I'll take any good publicity I can get - but wont be spending my advertising dollar with TK when I get ready to run ads.
TK can screw themselves.
Get a new editor, someone who isnt a schmuck, start actually delivering issues to people who have paid for them, and start writing decent articles, about the real products, and not just kissing the ass of advertisers, and I'll start buying them again.

Until that day then... they can stew in their own offal.
 
Brian,

Yeah sorry man I was in a foul mood at the time and shouldn't have been reading this thread. Like I said Jeff's thread put it into a better perspective for me so I realise we're on a bit of a different issue than I was bitching about. I'm going to try to stay out of this one until friday at SHOT show. Thanks for keeping the cool head.
 
Well not to stir the pot...who me? ;)

I like to look at all the angles before jumping and declaring myself on one side or the other. Like I said in the thread on our forum, sometimes it's not the editor that controls what goes in a magazine. I know this from experience for writing for all of them.

With that said, I'm not happy AT ALL about blatant knock-offs being featured in TK articles, but again I would rather meet a man eye-to-eye and discuss the issue, or call them on the phone.

I emailed both Steve Dick and Karin Levine (advertising) about this and they were more than happy to meet with us on this issue.

Just my opinion, but I think Steve has done a good job with TK overall. Sure, there have been bobbles and mistakes, and he and I couldn't see eye to eye on some things but that's water under the bridge for me. I was an idiot for ever making our pissing contest public. For that, I have apologized to Steve, and HOWEVER this issue works out I wish the best to him and the folks at Harris. If I can't support the mag because of rip-offs it doesn't mean I have to hate Steve Dick, Karin, or anyone else. Who knows who pulls all the strings in a business? I sure don't.

So, before jumping down his throat about this issue I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt until I hear their side.

Edit: If we want to do something positive, then lets make sure the makers who frequent this forum (and will be at SHOT) know they're invited to the meeting to give their input. Afterall, the knife industry is what supports the knife magazines. We're ALL a voice in this matter.
 
Originally posted by XRAYED
Exactly how would this be proved in court anyway? Unless it was stamped "STRIDER" you would have more than a hard time proving it as a stolen design. I dont think you'd have anymore luck sueing Linton for the Strider copy, than EK would going after Strider for having paracord wrapped handles.
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I'm not a copyright lawyer so forgive me in advance if I'm wrong. I seem to recall that sculptors may copyright the form of their work (i.e. sculptures) if the form of said sculpture was not already in the public domain or the copyright owned by someone else. Someone who copies that sculpture without permission would be violating that copyright.

Thus, if someone were to copy a Strider knife -- assuming that the form of said knife was not otherwise in the public domain or property of someone else -- then that person would be infringing Strider's copyright on the form of said knife. There is no need to have a "Strider" stamp on the counterfeit object, only that the item was copied and the copied item is validly copyrighted.

An interesting question is if someone were to independently produce the exact same knife as a Strider design, without any access whatsoever to the "original" Strider. I don't know the answer but I believe in that case there is no infringement on the copyright because there is no copying. But what are the odds of that? I suppose if someone on an island somewhere came up with the idea of a cartoon mouse named Mickey they wouldn't be violating Disney's copyrights but the odds of that happening are slim indeed.

I also don't know whether a slight modification to the Strider copy would be sufficient to prevent the counterfeit Strider from violating Strider's copyright on the original knife. I imagine a slight modification would not be enough to save the counterfeiter.

Another way of protecting the form of an object includes trademarking a particular feature. In other words, if you can show that a particular feature is used by you in your product such that people associate that feature with your products (as opposed to someone else's products), then others cannot copy that feature because that would infringe your trademark. IIRC Spyderco's round hole is such a trademarked feature ... they were able to show that the round hole is associated with Spyderco knives.

Is the form of the Strider blade protectable under copyright law? I don't know the answer.

As noted, the above is not a legal opinion, etc.
 
Originally posted by XRAYED
Exactly how would this be proved in court anyway? Unless it was stamped "STRIDER" you would have more than a hard time proving it as a stolen design. I dont think you'd have anymore luck sueing Linton for the Strider copy, than EK would going after Strider for having paracord wrapped handles.
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Greg, you keep on talking about the theft of a total knife design as being the same as the use of a single design feature that has been used by someone else at some time in the past. Plain and simple, it isn't the same thing at all. You can't make a knife without taking some design features that have been used by others and incorpotating them into a design of your own. Making a knife that looks like a carbon copy of someone elses is a totally different matter. That is intellectual theft and there is no other name for it.

As I have stated before, knockoffs are done by people and companies that have no imagination, no creativity and no ability to come up with an original thought. It is also my opinion that people or companies that do this are ethically challenged, but I do realize that as far as ethics are concerned what is considered to be wrong in one country is completely acceptable in another. In some countries the theft of intellectual property is just another way of doing business and it is not frowned upon at all. However, when these companies do business in foreign markets they should follow the accepted ways of doing business in those countries.
 
You know, for a long time I've been an avid reader of Tactical Knives and liked it better than Blade, but when I saw the article on those Linton knives, I almost puked. :barf:
What pisses me off is that TK allowed 5 pages to review these knives. Are they so blind that they cannot distinguish a ripoff when they see one? I remember several years ago (I don't remember the exact issue), Steven Dick in his "On The Point" segment criticized the likes of BudK and others for selling ripoffs and now he allows that trash to be reviewed. I don't care how well made these Linton things are, a knockoff is a knockoff. To even feature an ad about these knives is disrespectful to the original designers. Mr Dick, what's up with that?
 
Originally posted by Keith Montgomery
Greg, you keep on talking about the theft of a total knife design as being the same as the use of a single design feature that has been used by someone else at some time in the past.
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Well said Keith and I see your point. But do you think that the people who want a Strider will settle for a Linton? Let them buy them and see how well they work. I asked the same question to Mick and I hope he responds. If it were me, I would say "cool...my stuff has an impact" But I would also laugh all the way to the bank knowing that I am not losing sales.

Doesn't matter if the copy is current or old....you just gotta expect it...with whether you like it or not. There will be very few revolutionary designs with fixed bladed knives anymore. Would it be any different if the Linton had a different wrap style?...the steel is different, the finish is different, the sheath is different, and the entire outline is not that much different that the Blackjack machete (cant remember the name of the exact one)

I just hope that Mick comes to terms somehow with TK, because it is the only mag that is the EXACT target market that he needs.

If Linton makes a bad product they will disappear soon enough...magazine articles or not.
 
Slightly off-topic, but - I never read Fighting Knives Magazine and feel like I missed out. Why did this magazine cease publication?
 
Boink... don't remember the details, but I think it had something to do with Greg Walker leaving? I used to think it was a great mag, too... I even wrote Greg (I still have his letter in my files) concerning the old Mad Dog fiasco that occured way back when... Straight shooter from the word go... but he left and FK died?
And if we're lucky... Greg will see this and clear that little Q up...

Otherwise - I, too, stopped subscribing to TK... several YEARS ago... And WHY??? Because my subscription had lapsed...
Yeah, I knew it had, but at the time, I couldn't afford to re-new... What really pissed me off was that they sent me one or two issues past the end of my subscription and then sent me very threatening letters about how I HAD to re-new my subscritption as they were still sending it to me... And I wrote them and let them know about the Postal Regulations concerning items unsolicted that are sent anyway... and how that makes 'em "free"... and because of the tone of their letters, I told them I'd never subscribe to TK or any other mag offered by their publishing company...

And now??? Well, I'm considering legal action against Blade for false advertising: my subscription expires soon, and while I'd like to continue with my subscription... the last two letters offer me "the Absolutely Best Deal" on a renewal... only to find it's the exact same rate as printed on those little postcard insets trying to get you to subscribe... and of which I still have them from several editions of Blade, along with their two letters...

Sorry, but there are certain tactics I don't put up with for long...
 
Because it was bought by Blade to silence it.
Greg Walker told it like it was, if a knife sucked, he said so.

So Blade buys it and prints a little blurb that it would be incorporated into Blade every month with a fighting knives section.
And that was about the last thing ever written in Blade about fighting knives. They do occasionally cover a fighting knife maker lately but they are so PC, limp wristed, and so damn afraid of offending anyone or admitting that yes, some knives are for killing, it can make you puke.
 
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