Boundaries of Legality

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Feb 5, 2010
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Did you ever stop to wonder what goes on in a lawmaker's head when they write laws with broad definitions that essentially outlaw knives outside the context of kitchen use? I'm talking about regulations on blade length, how they open and operate, and so on.

In another thread we've talked about some materials you can't use in knife making, even if you obtain the materials in legal and moral ways. Ostensibly the purpose is to protect endangered species, but the laws are written such that even utilization of material that in no way harms the animals (or encourages harm to animals) is banned. What were they thinking?

And blade length... okay to have a kitchen knife with an 8 inch blade, but any OTHER type of knife with a 4 inch blade or larger is considered a dangerous weapon? So every bush knife and chopper is a crime? What were they thinking? Should I take kitchen knives on camping trips, or does that magically transform the legal kitche knife into a dangerous weapon?

And to write a law that prohibits knives that are opened and operated by gravity or by motion of the hand or wrist... are you kidding me? What were they thinking? How else would one open a knife? Ever tried opening a knife without gravity or a motion of the wrist or hand? I guess you could do it... if you wanted to be on America's Funniest Videos.

As knifemakers, your products fall on one side or the other of the legal boundary line. When you set up your internet shop and offer to sell products in other states, are you held liable if you sell a product that is illegal in the state you'll send it to? And just how dilligent are knifemakers about checking the laws in the customer's state/city/county?

Even assuming you never plan to sell a knife with "marginal legality", you still may be breaking the law.

Sad, really... something our forefathers took for granted, the right to keep and bear knives, is trampled upon so readily and so thoroughly... and for what?

- Greg
 
I am not too happy about the vagueness involved either. When I bring up knife making to people I always get the is this legal question. I have been meaning to go down to the local authorities to ask some specific questions.

Anyone here know the best place to ask such knife legality related questions? Police dept, DA?
 
Did you ever stop to wonder what goes on in a lawmaker's head when they write laws with broad definitions that essentially outlaw knives outside the context of kitchen use? I'm talking about regulations on blade length, how they open and operate, and so on.

Here in lies your problem. you expect rationality, but you get emotion. you hope for common sense, but you are confronted with all to common stupid.
 
I am not too happy about the vagueness involved either. When I bring up knife making to people I always get the is this legal question. I have been meaning to go down to the local authorities to ask some specific questions.

Anyone here know the best place to ask such knife legality related questions? Police dept, DA?

I would imagine an organization for the knife user similar to the NRA. I have family in law enforcement and they do not know all the laws regarding guns use/owning/buying/selling. So I imagine it is similar to knife laws. Unless they have happened to be involved in many knife related cases so they took the time to learn all the state laws involved.
 
I am not too happy about the vagueness involved either. When I bring up knife making to people I always get the is this legal question. I have been meaning to go down to the local authorities to ask some specific questions.

Anyone here know the best place to ask such knife legality related questions? Police dept, DA?

Why ask the people who are interfering with our rights? Police and even the District Attorney's office rarely have up-to-date knowledge of knife laws.

On Bladeforums: Knife Laws
Your place to discuss the laws that affect us "Knife Nuts"

I would imagine an organization for the knife user similar to the NRA. I have family in law enforcement and they do not know all the laws regarding guns use/owning/buying/selling. So I imagine it is similar to knife laws. Unless they have happened to be involved in many knife related cases so they took the time to learn all the state laws involved.

On Bladeforums: American Knife & Tool Institute
The official forum for AKTI. Show your support and join TODAY!

Knife Rights, Inc.
http://www.KnifeRights.org
Email:dritter@KnifeRights.org
 
I lol'd when I read this.

nives in Public Meetings

171b. (a) Any person who brings or possesses within any state or
local public building or at any meeting required to be open to the
public pursuant to Chapter 9 (commencing with Section 54950) of Part
1 of Division 2 of Title 5 of, or Article 9 (commencing with Section
11120) of Chapter 1 of Part 1 of Division 3 of Title 2 of, the
Government Code, any of the following is guilty of a public offense
punishable by imprisonment in a county jail for not more than one
year, or in the state prison:
 
The problem isn't the laws as much as it is the law-makers. I have seen such grotesque ignorance in the lawmakers that it really does make your head hurt. These are the same people that think a barrel shroud goes on the buttplate and flips up!

I once heard it said that the people we elect are themselves being run by twenty-something aides and assistants. It's those young people with no real life experience or education that write feel-good bills that the representatives never actually read before voting them forward. How could you honestly expect anyone, and that includes you and me, to read a thousand-page bill full of legalese.... and understand it? It took Ben Franklin and his cohorts four years to come up with a design for our currency. Four years for something so simple, and we got universal healthcare in less than a month. How is that?
 
I was hitching a ride on a C130 heading to Kosovo when and Air Farce puke at Ramstein tried to confiscate my knives stating "they were dangerous and against theater policies. I'm in full battle rattle with basic loads for my M4 and pistol and they're worried about my fighting knife and SOG.... I'm an Army E7, acting 1SG and some AF lower enlisted puke is pulling that !#$!@ on me? I asked for his supervisor and when he arrived (E5) I proceeded to give them a proper tune up. I got really warmed up when their Senior NCO showed up and he and I had a heart to heart.... My Major finally drags me out of there but not before informing some 1LT he'd be shooting a heat round off to the terminal Commander.

There's stupid bastards everywhere and it's best not to let them drag you down.
 
The knife laws in this country are so vague, complicated, and ever-changing that no one understands them, not even the police. Therefore the average citizen cannot avoid carrying a knife that could be considered illegal. Bad laws like this turn law-abiding citizens into criminals with "weapons violations." None of this is Constitutional. The legal principle going all the way back to Hammurabi is that laws have to be written down. The police can't simply arrest anyone they want, for any reason they invent on the spot, and put him in jail. The problem is that our knife laws are written in gibberish. Therefore the "interpretation" of the cop on the street is actually the impromptu invention of law. This is illegal. Therefore citizens can ignore all nonsensical knife laws. It is impossible to obey a law one cannot understand, so the attempt is a waste of time and energy. A man in NJ was recently arrested, tried, and convicted for the "crime" of having a Swiss Army folding knife with a tiny blade in his car. This proves that American knife laws turn every citizen into a criminal who may be arrested at any time. We all have knives, so we are all guilty. Live Free or Die
 
I would not suggest that people can wantonly ignore laws just because they seem incomprehensible. Frankly, I wouldn't advocate ignoring laws under any circumstances.

Rather, we should work to understand them and, if we have serious disagreement with them, work to get them changed.

But it is known that there is a drawback to that approach. When you raise this sort of thing to public visibility, you run the risk of appearing to be a "wacko". Consider how the public reacts when the NRA pushes for relaxation or repeal of gun laws. Avid gun owners get vocal, and the quaking terrified mothers demand stronger gun laws to protect them from the "gun nuts".

I don't think we'd be wise to engage in similarly polarizing activities. Blatantly disregarding the laws will only show those quaking mothers we are as crazy as the "gun nuts". Who knows... maybe we are. I never thought the gun nuts were all that crazy anyway... except for the ones that stockpile thousands of rounds in dark secret cubby holes waiting for the commie invasion. But I digress...

Does anyone know of a source where common folks (or even lawyers) could get access to searchable copies of the legal codes for cities and counties? I'd like to do some side by side comparisons between the codes for certain areas.

- Greg
 
2nd amendment to the bill of rights:

A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

In other words if you need to start a militia you can have weapons. Imagine if all the good Americans who follow the law were armed on those planes on 9-11... maybe the militia would have defended the state!

I firmly believe that bad people probably won't follow the law and the rest of us shouldn't be punished for their actions. Freedom is more important to me, in fact more important than just about any law that can be thought up.

I have an old Boy Scout knife that is illegal to carry!
 
Since the discussion is going in a reasonable manner, lets discuss this thread for a few more days, and then I'll move it to the Knife Laws forum.
 
Daniel said it first, but it bears repeating.

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

Surprising nobody has brought it up already. There is an organization parallel to NRA for blade afficianados. http://kniferights.org/. Check 'em out at Blade!

ooopps! Esav beat me to it! sorry folks!

Tryppyr said
And to write a law that prohibits knives that are opened and operated by gravity or by motion of the hand or wrist... are you kidding me? What were they thinking? How else would one open a knife? Ever tried opening a knife without gravity or a motion of the wrist or hand? I guess you could do it... if you wanted to be on America's Funniest Videos.

I'll reply by saying my Ken Onion Leek opens without gravity or motion of the wrist. It has a spring assist, that surprisingly does not legally qualify as a "switchblade" because there is no switch! The spring is also designed to help keep the blade closed, legally defined as "a bias to stay closed". The design is beautiful in that it follows the letter of the law and allows rapid opening. I mam not totally savvy, but I believe Emerson uses something similar called "The Wave".

Daniel indicates his Boy Scout knife is illegal to carry in Colorado, likely it is perfectly legal here in California. I guess I am lucky here in California (a rare thing to say) because we have few laws on what can be carried. As far as I can tell we can carry a sword as long as it is not concealed, and a folder that is not an automatic or gravity knife can be concealed.
 
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RE I don't think we'd be wise to engage in similarly polarizing activities. Blatantly disregarding the laws will only show those quaking mothers we are as crazy as the "gun nuts".

Perhaps you are right, but I think it could go the other way too. In NH that is exactly what happened. Please let me explain-

In New Hampshire we had a law against "dirks" until quite recently. The definition of a dirk is a Scottish ceremonial knife. It is not constitutional to pass a law against one race of people. If one race can have knives, then we all can. Therefore, Scots routinely ignored the law. Basically all the men wore dirks at the Scottish games in NH. My uncle wore a dirk openly almost every day. When the NH knife law was questioned recently, this was one of the things that was mentioned. Thousands of Scots had been carrying dirks for decades and there was never a problem. This fact helped the laws to go away.

It took so long because a Scot was never arrested for carrying a dirk. If one had been, I think the law would have disappeared earlier. I think the cops were smart enough to realize this and never bothered enforcing it.
 
In other words if you need to start a militia you can have weapons. Imagine if all the good Americans who follow the law were armed on those planes on 9-11... maybe the militia would have defended the state!

By the way, Don't bring a knife on a plane! (well maybe if you own the plane... but if it is illegal don't do it.) I reread my post and I didn't want it to be taken that way. Despite my philosophical viewpoints in reality you will get in trouble. :D
 
As somebody above stated, check out kniferights.org. I'm suprised they haven't chimed in yet.

On the knifelaws sub forum a post like this comes up about every month. And a new post about NYC laws just about every week. The cops who tend to post there suggest writing to your local DA office for the interpretations of the local laws. But don't always expect an answer from the DA. Your next best source IMO would be to ask a local law enforcement officer. They're the ones who will be issuing the arrest.
 
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