BOWIE Knife or not?

cbach8tw said:
Good video above, i have also heard the original sandbar Bowie was more of a butcher type knife. In my opinion the Edwin Forrest Bowie is closest in style to the original sandbar knife. I personally like this style. After the fight, everyone wanted A KNIFE LIKE BOWIE’S, and the styles took off. Resin and Jim also had fancier ones made, maybe that is where we get the Searles style made, my second favorite design, maybe with some Spanish influences.
Click to expand...
Mine is the Searles Bowie, but I do like the Forrest Bowie also and think that it has a pretty good chance of being THE Bowie knife although we will never know.
 
Thank you all kindly for the fascinating information and video links, I am learning so much. As you can imagine this knife has been talking to me for a couple of days.
For a recap where I think I am up to so far.

Definitely an English knife of a kitchen pattern although when carried outside the kitchen as a utility kind of knife
Possibly a South American style sheath and mismatched with the blade? Although the knife is from an English collector with very few foreign knives in it, are we thinking that sheath may have come from South America to Sheffield? This got me thinking how information regarding the knife used in the Amazing Sand bar battle would have got from America to England back then, of course today it would be a video of the actual battle posted on line and then shared around the world in a matter of minutes and someone could have a CNC program ready in a couple of hours. Back then it was months on a ship with probably alcohol enhanced tall tale memory relayed to the manufacturers by a trader. They could still probably have new patterns made and shipped out within a year.

My naturally inquiring mind takes over and runs away me here, the Forrest knife appears to have that same dropped rear pin hole as found on English pistol style handles?
What were Bowies family political affiliations? would it be unseemly to carry an English Knife in those times? Could Rezin have taken an English knife and modified it for Jim? Carefully scraping off the manufacturer's name and origin to avoid embarrassment.

Has anyone actually seen the Forrest Bowie knife? Is there a hollow three or four inches in front of the handle? I think I have read that it has an unusual grind?
 
Last edited:
Best video on the Forrest -

.

--------------------

The sheath isn't South American style, but rather English style made for a knife that might see use in South America. Here's a similar stud sheath for a Sheffield Bowie - https://www.eldreds.com/auction-lot/sheffield-bowie-style-knife-with-scabbard-mother_6444BEFB46 .

Having a sheath made for a pattern would've been pretty trivial back then, you'd just need to know there was a market for it. There's a term for things like a cook's knife that might see outdoor use, and that would be "Trade knife". It's a catch all term for kitchen knives, industrial knives, and knives that would appeal to certain foreign areas. Sometimes in old catalogs, there'd be a note at the bottom of a page or a separate page where extra stuff could be ordered for certain popular models. It could be a sheath, handle upgrade, etc.... The American firm of Collins and Co even for a time offered fancy belts and belt buckles for optional sale with their machetes.

As for how it got into an English collection? There's a chance it could be a souvenir from a trip, but there's a good chance it might never have made it out of England. Workers bring stuff home, factories get rid of odd lots there isn't a huge market for anymore. Tool/Cutlery importers and exporters get left with samples, unsold stock, etc.... Ken Hawley (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_Hawley), the tool historian used to luck into all types of things that way.

Bowie knife development happens 1826-1827, the Sandbar fight happens in Sept 1827. If the knife is the Forrest knife or similar to it (Rezin Bowie had a thing for straight backed or very mildly clipped knives, every knife he was involved with that is known has that general shape), it was probably made by a local blacksmith. Later, the knives he had involvement with tended to come from makers with surgical instrument backgrounds. The cutlers involved in the surgical instrument trade were considered the best at the time.

----------------------------------------------

This is the clippiest knife thought to have Rezin Bowie's input - https://www.bidsquare.com/online-au...r-bowie-knife-presented-by-rezin-bowie-681910 . As you can see it's still a very mild clip.

Also on the Forrest knife, there's actually a lot of complex tapering to the whole thing. Everyone that has handled it in real life has said that it feels like a fighter, definitely not a kitchen or utility knife in hand. Also, it's thick around 5/16"s if I remember correctly.
 
Last edited:
tltt said:
Best video on the Forrest -

.

--------------------

The sheath isn't South American style, but rather English style made for a knife that might see use in South America. Here's a similar stud sheath for a Sheffield Bowie - https://www.eldreds.com/auction-lot/sheffield-bowie-style-knife-with-scabbard-mother_6444BEFB46 .

Having a sheath made for a pattern would've been pretty trivial back then, you'd just need to know there was a market for it. There's a term for things like a cook's knife that might see outdoor use, and that would be "Trade knife". It's a catch all term for kitchen knives, industrial knives, and knives that would appeal to certain foreign areas. Sometimes in old catalogs, there'd be a note at the bottom of a page or a separate page where extra stuff could be ordered for certain popular models. It could be a sheath, handle upgrade, etc.... The American firm of Collins and Co even for a time offered fancy belts and belt buckles for optional sale with their machetes.

As for how it got into an English collection? There's a chance it could be a souvenir from a trip, but there's a good chance it might never have made it out of England. Workers bring stuff home, factories get rid of odd lots there isn't a huge market for anymore. Tool/Cutlery importers and exporters get left with samples, unsold stock, etc.... Ken Hawley (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_Hawley), the tool historian used to luck into all types of things that way.

Bowie knife development happens 1826-1827, the Sandbar fight happens in Sept 1827. If the knife is the Forrest knife or similar to it (Rezin Bowie had a thing for straight backed or very mildly clipped knives, every knife he was involved with that is known has that general shape), it was probably made by a local blacksmith. Later, the knives he had involvement with tended to come from makers with surgical instrument backgrounds. The cutlers involved in the surgical instrument trade were considered the best at the time.

----------------------------------------------

This is the clippiest knife thought to have Rezin Bowie's input - https://www.bidsquare.com/online-au...r-bowie-knife-presented-by-rezin-bowie-681910 . As you can see it's still a very mild clip.

Also on the Forrest knife, there's actually a lot of complex tapering to the whole thing. Everyone that has handled it in real life has said that it feels like a fighter, definitely not a kitchen or utility knife in hand. Also, it's thick around 5/16"s if I remember correctly.
Click to expand...
You are right, the second you handle the Forest knife you know it was made as a fighter, not an everyday kitchen knife. Photos never do that knife justice. As for whether Bowie owned it, I'm not sure we will ever know for sure.
 
tltt said:
Best video on the Forrest -

.

--------------------

The sheath isn't South American style, but rather English style made for a knife that might see use in South America. Here's a similar stud sheath for a Sheffield Bowie - https://www.eldreds.com/auction-lot/sheffield-bowie-style-knife-with-scabbard-mother_6444BEFB46 .

Having a sheath made for a pattern would've been pretty trivial back then, you'd just need to know there was a market for it. There's a term for things like a cook's knife that might see outdoor use, and that would be "Trade knife". It's a catch all term for kitchen knives, industrial knives, and knives that would appeal to certain foreign areas. Sometimes in old catalogs, there'd be a note at the bottom of a page or a separate page where extra stuff could be ordered for certain popular models. It could be a sheath, handle upgrade, etc.... The American firm of Collins and Co even for a time offered fancy belts and belt buckles for optional sale with their machetes.

As for how it got into an English collection? There's a chance it could be a souvenir from a trip, but there's a good chance it might never have made it out of England. Workers bring stuff home, factories get rid of odd lots there isn't a huge market for anymore. Tool/Cutlery importers and exporters get left with samples, unsold stock, etc.... Ken Hawley (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_Hawley), the tool historian used to luck into all types of things that way.

Bowie knife development happens 1826-1827, the Sandbar fight happens in Sept 1827. If the knife is the Forrest knife or similar to it (Rezin Bowie had a thing for straight backed or very mildly clipped knives, every knife he was involved with that is known has that general shape), it was probably made by a local blacksmith. Later, the knives he had involvement with tended to come from makers with surgical instrument backgrounds. The cutlers involved in the surgical instrument trade were considered the best at the time.

----------------------------------------------

This is the clippiest knife thought to have Rezin Bowie's input - https://www.bidsquare.com/online-au...r-bowie-knife-presented-by-rezin-bowie-681910 . As you can see it's still a very mild clip.

Also on the Forrest knife, there's actually a lot of complex tapering to the whole thing. Everyone that has handled it in real life has said that it feels like a fighter, definitely not a kitchen or utility knife in hand. Also, it's thick around 5/16"s if I remember correctly.
Click to expand...

Thanks for posting that video. I have not seen it, though I knew much about the authors research and book. Additional info that came after, I think was that the clift knife may have been the sandbar knife and the forest knife was the duel knife. But as others have said, we will never know for sure. But one thing is certain, the known Bowie pattern of today is not what Bowie had at that time.
 
Cobalt said:
Interesting side note about the real heavy butcher style blade he used in the fight. The crow liver eater carried almost the exact style and size of knife that Bowie did in his fight.
Click to expand...

With or without the guard?

Having seen that knife in the Cody museum, and seeing other discussion revolving around that knife, I agree that it likely started out life with a guard. Either way, that thing is pretty beastly.
 
NapalmCheese said:
With or without the guard?

Having seen that knife in the Cody museum, and seeing other discussion revolving around that knife, I agree that it likely started out life with a guard. Either way, that thing is pretty beastly.
Click to expand...

Neither the clifft or forrest knives look like they could have had a guard. A buttcap, maybe. But not a guard. And there was no mention of one anywhere.
 
butcher-knife-768x481.png
I seem to remember reading that the Bowie brothers both hunted wild cattle. While doing that Rezin’s hand slipped down the blade injuring him.
Subsequently when designing the knife for Jim he included a guard.
The account didn’t say whether it was a regular guard or dropped edge self guard.

The only first hand account says “big butcher knife “
An early 1800s butcher knife was a cimiter, not a French chef’s knife. :)

As I’ve said before….. we just don’t know. We can opine, pontificate, suppose, guess & declare all we want, we still don’t know. I’m okay with that.

That’s what makes it fun. :)
 
Is it a
"Bowe" knife? Well, it is big-ish but not really big. Bsck in the 919th Century hay-day of the Bowe, it might have been considered to be on the small side.

In any case, I have never quite understood the parameters or design characteristics of a "Bowe" knife other than size and intended use as a weapon.
 
Cobalt said:
Here is Jeremiah Johnson's knife. It had a 9.5 inch blade and was quite thick. Not to different from the design of the clifft knife. And no guard or evidence of one

bNNvSFr.jpg
Click to expand...

Interesting....the card says the knife was made by Wade & Butcher, of Sheffield, England.

So the often-made reference to a "butcher" knife could also be a reference to the company name partner, Butcher, not the profession of butchering. I.e., it could be any type and shape of knife made by that company.
 
TC said:
Interesting....the card says the knife was made by Wade & Butcher, of Sheffield, England.

So the often-made reference to a "butcher" knife could also be a reference to the company name partner, Butcher, not the profession of butchering. I.e., it could be any type and shape of knife made by that company.
Click to expand...

I bet most frontier knives were made by such companies. Just makes sense. You already make butcher knives, not much to make a slight mod to it or rebrand it.
 
“A” Bowie knife or “The” Bowie knife?

There’s a difference. :)

As the knife’s primary use went from primarily a weapon towards a tool with weapon capabilities, the knife got smaller.
This was driven by the advancement and availability of repeating firearms.

Add to that the Bowie name became a marketing buzzword.
It still is.

Even what we currently consider a Bowie has changed in the time I’ve been a member here.
Back in’99 a Bowie was something like a John Nelson Cooper or a Randall Smithsonian. Or even a Western W49

w49.jpg

A knife like the Camillus OVB Fisk was more in the “Southwest Fighter” category and one like the BK9 was a camp knife.

So what’s in a name?

😁
 
Cobalt said:
I bet most frontier knives were made by such companies. Just makes sense. You already make butcher knives, not much to make a slight mod to it or rebrand it.
Click to expand...
For sure. If they changed them at all. Out on the frontier, all your meat was on the hoof, so a butcher’s knife would be a necessity.
 
Cobalt said:
Here is Jeremiah Johnson's knife. It had a 9.5 inch blade and was quite thick. Not to different from the design of the clifft knife. And no guard or evidence of one

bNNvSFr.jpg
Click to expand...
There never was a Jeremiah Johnson, that name is a Hollywood invention for a sorry excuse of a mountain man movie.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top